How do we convince Bio's???

[curt]

Ok so we have beat the topics of season lengths and harminizing regions to reduce hunter pressure to death!!! So now the big question how do we convince the biologists to re visit their overly conservative outlooks and sort out some of these issue's!?!?!? I often look at the mangement plans and wonder wtf are these people thinking and do they actually have a freaking clue what is really going on out there!?!?! I'm not convinced!!:confused:

[Sitkaspruce]

I believe that it is not always the Bio's we should work on.

Two of the biggest are;

1- Our selves as hunters. We are own worst enemies. There is so many armchair bio's out there who think only for themselves. Especially those who want only big animals and think that all seasons should be for 4pt/6pt/ over 8yo trophy's only. We only have to look at all the posts on here to see a lot of one way thinking. We need to stop thinking with emotion and social reasons and start looking at how we can keep the hunt/fish alive as a whole.

2- Politicians. They are THE BIGGEST problem we have. Just look at some of the FN concerns, the wolf problems and how they bend to the anti's, all just to garner/keep votes. There is very few of them that even understand issues that affect our love of fish and hunt. I bet very few even been in a park, gone fishing or tasted wild game. They need to keep out of the bio's/MOE's business and do what ever Politicians do.

Bio's, for the most part, are pretty passionate about their jobs and really do have a tough job between balancing the wants of all users and maintaining a healthy population of animals. It is a job that I am not envious of.

Cheers

SS

[curt]

I can see how politicians throw a wrench into the system thats just how they role and then the guide outfitters make their bitches and gripes too but still there are some very simple fixes that would apease many hunters.

[Fisher-Dude]

^^^ Yeah what SS said. Lots of people are bitching at the region 8 bio because there's no wolf season here (yet!). But he's been putting a proposal in every regs cycle trying to get one, and gathering data from the clubs and GOs to justify it. Last time, Mr Penner said "No way I can approve this in an election year when I get a stack of letters 6 inches high from people who want NO wolf season anywhere, and two letters asking for a wolf season in region 8."

Can you blame Penner? He only did what the majority told him to do. I think we can only blame ourselves for not stepping up and demanding what we want and need, in numbers. Where's your passion? How many don't even work at the club level or join the BCWF?

Outdone by a bunch of granola munching freaks with dreadlocks. Pretty sad.

[Gunner]

God knows that I'm not making excuses for Regional Biologists,I've had more than my share of disagreements with them.They are trying to operate under severe fiscal restraints that impact their ability to inventory wildlife numbers in their areas.I've always felt that they spend too much time running computer models and not enough time in the bush.My other gripe is that they tend to listen to the GOs as to what's going on and ignore info from Residents.All in all though most of them care about they do.When they do make recommendations they are often subject to political interference. Gunner

[Deaddog]

tough job all around,....really doesnt matter what decision they make ....someone is going to be pissed about it....the real crux is the lack of dollars available to them to do proper inventory's etc....sad when our regional bios have to go to hctf to apply for money that really should be coming from their own regional budgets, bottom line is when (if) all user groups in the bush get together we may have a hope of actually getting the government to put the proper dollars into wildlife.. could easily be solved if the dollars from all hunting licenses/tags went back to wildlife...as was originally agreed many years ago by the gov't...but don't hold your breath we have way to many social "programs" to fund.

[Benthos]

i would suggest that some regulations are likely in place to be conservative because of the uncertainty with the numbers. why the uncertainty, well there is uncertainty with all population models, or any model for that matter, but when the input data is old or none existent, conservatism needs to be used in place of realism.

more funding for aerial surveys to provide more accurate numbers in support of population estimates is the first step. unfortunately in an era of fiscal restraint and lack of funds in the dirt ministries, i don't see this happening anytime soon except in those regions where there is political pressure to do so.

my two bits

[6616]

Ok so we have beat the topics of season lengths and harminizing regions to reduce hunter pressure to death!!! So now the big question how do we convince the biologists to re visit their overly conservative outlooks and sort out some of these issue's!?!?!? I often look at the mangement plans and wonder wtf are these people thinking and do they actually have a freaking clue what is really going on out there!?!?! I'm not convinced!!:confused:

So you believe managers are too conservative and you would like to know how to convince them to see things your way? Did you for example read the many threads on West Kootenay elk or the recent one on the any-buck mule deer season in the East Kootenay? You will note there are many people out there that think management is not conservative enough and are also wondering how to convince the bios to tighten up on regulations. Then we have guide-outfitters pulling a third direction for quality management and allocation. And then there's the antis. I guess what I'm saying is to get involved with the social politics of hunting through your MLA and regional managers, but leave the science to the scientists and lets quit trying to tell biologists what's sustainable and what's not because as laypersons we really aren't trained to make those calls, question them yes and get an explanation, but not to oppose them like as if we know more about game management than the bios do.

Remember many of the discussions, like whether to keep West Kootenay elk on LEH for example, are social and political decisions that managers and politicians will make. There's no use beating up the bios over those kind of things.

And then there's things like the controversial any-buck mule deer season in the Kootenays, that's a biological (sustainability) decision, and we should let the bios decide. Not let on we know more about deer management than the bios like some people on the "mulw" deer thread were doing.

So the bottom line is we don't have to convince the bios of anything. We have to convince MLAs and upper level managers if we want social change. For example, do we want to manage moose for maximum sustainable yield or for quality? - that's a social and political decision we should be involved with. But how many moose can we sustainably shoot to meet the management strategy once it's socially decided on is strictly a biological decision.

[hunter1947]

My thought have always been that a biologist should have to spend 30% of there job out there in the wild to get a good idea whats really out there in as many regions as she or he can get to ,sheep biologist in areas where sheep are as for biologist that are into elk the same goes for deer ,predators etc ,maybe the biologist do spend lots of time out there I really don't know ????.

[The Dude]

Even amongst ourselves (Resident Hunters) we can't agree on what we want. (Quality vs Quantity, 4 point vs any buck, GOS vs LEH, rut hunts, no rut hunts etc etc) Throw in the GOABC and the Anti's and the job of a Bio is one i do not envy. They basically make their recommendations made by data garnered from limited budgets and resources, and manage as best they can. Beyond that, I believe it's out of their hands.

[fireguy]

Instead of harping on the biologists about season changes and the like, try a different approach and look at habitat enhancement and predator control. Wolves are one part of the problem but coyotes, cougars, bears, and cars take their fair share of wildlife each year as well. Join a club, get involved, go shoot a few predators in the off season, and push your politicians for deer fences along highways that kill lots of deer.

Our habitat could use a lot of work, burns are an example of something that would enhance the populations and make hunting opportunities better for all.

The bottom line is that the politicians make the changes and without pressure from us, nothing will get done.

[Devilbear]

So you believe managers are too conservative and you would like to know how to convince them to see things your way? Did you for example read the many threads on West Kootenay elk or the recent one on the any-buck mule deer season in the East Kootenay? You will note there are many people out there that think management is not conservative enough and are also wondering how to convince the bios to tighten up on regulations. Then we have guide-outfitters pulling a third direction for quality management and allocation. And then there's the antis. I guess what I'm saying is to get involved with the social politics of hunting through your MLA and regional managers, but leave the science to the scientists and lets quit trying to tell biologists what's sustainable and what's not because as laypersons we really aren't trained to make those calls, question them yes and get an explanation, but not to oppose them like as if we know more about game management than the bios do.

Remember many of the discussions, like whether to keep West Kootenay elk on LEH for example, are social and political decisions that managers and politicians will make. There's no use beating up the bios over those kind of things.

And then there's things like the controversial any-buck mule deer season in the Kootenays, that's a biological (sustainability) decision, and we should let the bios decide. Not let on we know more about deer management than the bios like some people on the "mulw" deer thread were doing.

So the bottom line is we don't have to convince the bios of anything. We have to convince MLAs and upper level managers if we want social change. For example, do we want to manage moose for maximum sustainable yield or for quality? - that's a social and political decision we should be involved with. But how many moose can we sustainably shoot to meet the management strategy once it's socially decided on is strictly a biological decision.

This is partially correct, however, there are LOTS of people among the outdoor enthusiasts in BC, who DO have the educational attainments-erudition to understand ...the science... and thus comment upon the decisions made by "bios" in a knowledgeable manner. "Bios" are NOT infallible, natural systems change constantly and informed criticism, in most aspects of life, not only wildlife management, is both beneficial and a basic right of every BC citizen.

The social and "purely" biological aspects of management prescriptions cannot be separated and one complements the other; I make comments to "bios" sometimes and I DO my research BEFORE doing so, but, I would never ...leave... any aspect of environmental management simply to the civil servants paid to make such decisions.....been there and know what happens.

As always, your posts are superb, very well written and thought provoking and I wish there were 50,000 people like you in BC as that would probably solve many of our current environmental problems.

[GoatGuy]

The problem is with people not bios. the science is generally pretty straightforward given the proper resources.

Hunters, non-hunters and anti-hunters generally don't seem to either care or want to know what it takes to manage healthy habitat and wildlife populations. Typically you'd expect the segment which cares about wildlife the
most (hunters) to be informed, and want other people to do what they do and share common beliefs. Unfortunately, hunters are just as if not more misinformed than the public at large and there are a pile of hunters who don't want more people to get in to hunting.

How and where this all started I don't know, but I do know the only thing holding hunting and hunters back in BC is themselves. Anti-hunters are a tiny group that's mildly organized and they are able to impress their views on hunting and wildlife management with relative ease. We are without a doubt our own worst enemy.

[6616]

[QUOTE=Devilbear;1053658] however, there are LOTS of people among the outdoor enthusiasts in BC, who DO have the educational attainments-erudition to understand ...the science... and thus comment upon the decisions made by "bios" in a knowledgeable manner. [QUOTE]

I think the bios see and know that, and usually have a working relationship in their region with such folks, and value their opinions. I also think the bios are well equipped to weed out the nonsense from among the many comments received from the general public. That's why final decisions do not always agree with the results of public consultation processes.

[curt]

So you believe managers are too conservative and you would like to know how to convince them to see things your way? Did you for example read the many threads on West Kootenay elk or the recent one on the any-buck mule deer season in the East Kootenay? You will note there are many people out there that think management is not conservative enough and are also wondering how to convince the bios to tighten up on regulations. Then we have guide-outfitters pulling a third direction for quality management and allocation. And then there's the antis. I guess what I'm saying is to get involved with the social politics of hunting through your MLA and regional managers, but leave the science to the scientists and lets quit trying to tell biologists what's sustainable and what's not because as laypersons we really aren't trained to make those calls, question them yes and get an explanation, but not to oppose them like as if we know more about game management than the bios do.

Remember many of the discussions, like whether to keep West Kootenay elk on LEH for example, are social and political decisions that managers and politicians will make. There's no use beating up the bios over those kind of things.

And then there's things like the controversial any-buck mule deer season in the Kootenays, that's a biological (sustainability) decision, and we should let the bios decide. Not let on we know more about deer management than the bios like some people on the "mulw" deer thread were doing.

So the bottom line is we don't have to convince the bios of anything. We have to convince MLAs and upper level managers if we want social change. For example, do we want to manage moose for maximum sustainable yield or for quality? - that's a social and political decision we should be involved with. But how many moose can we sustainably shoot to meet the management strategy once it's socially decided on is strictly a biological decision.

The reality is a lot of Bio's dont get out in the field much at all, as many people have pointed out here. I talked with the senior project officer in charge of the regulations from Victoria last spring super nice guy to talk to very informative on some issue's, and he confirmed some regions have very little funding for field work and they use a very approximate average of the possible numbers!!! SO in some cases I think they should be at the very least hearing what we are telling them and looking at some changes! Christ the most accurate info your going to get is from the hunters pushing the bush unless of course the bio's or out flying around which apparently doesnt happen nearly as much as it should!?!? I'm sure the political BS can feel like a pressure cooker but we deserve some quality with quantity hunting opportunities we deserve options in my opinion!? If size restriction is the answer according to our experts so be it 4 point 6 point tri palm wtf ever, the chances may be slim in some spots but at least it's still a chance an opportunity a justification for being there!?!? I understand if there is concern ie. west Kootenay elk or Mule deer then absolutely deal with it accordingly. The reality is there is a potential for many more hunting opportunities than they are currently giving us so my question and frustration is WHY?? When I talked with the Project officer last spring he claimed they were leaning towards the hunters more, there was talk of harminizing seasons, fewer LEH and more GOS but somebody somewhere was blowing smoke up someones arse because it didnt happen. The ministry is concerned with the number of hunters declining every year well it's not hard to see why, seasons are shorter, fewer opportunities and restriction, hunters having to travel incredibly long distances to get open seasons. Hear me out for 1 second here this is just my perspective and I may be way off but but here we go; Closing Immy moose in region 3 until Oct 15th some may agree with it that fine but here's the other side??? So for the guy who hunts Sept or early OCT in Region 3 what are you opportunities 4 point mule deer and possibly WT if they are in the area!?!? For the meat hunter and or the family guy with comitments that type of opening may well be tough to justify the time away......just saying. I hunted last year in region 3 late sept (because I had no draws and wanted to try something different, just to clarify) it was a ghost town not a single hunter for 5 days why, well I'll bet it's got lots to do with the fact the hunting opportunities were slim that time of year!? If the Ministry was concerned with giving us decent hunting opportunity then why not open IMMY's with the Mule Deer then close them during the rut and re open after the vulnerable time period is over, they have done that in other regions in the past? I love to hunt I wont be one of the many that give it up completely but I wont lie "It's frustrating to see game everyday and often due to species restriction antler size or gender not have chance to harvest one, it's frustrating to put in for LEH draws at up to 20 +;1 odds for a moose in area's where they are running around like rabbits and never get a draw!! From a Lower mainland/FraserValley point of veiw its frustrating we have to drive hrs past beautiful game rich country because someone somewhere has decided to close seasons or just not open them period". With BC's highest population concentration being from Hope to Vancouver Island there are plenty of Hunters thinking this way, I'm sure. Thinking of moose again for a second here's a question for somebody with more knowledge than me...... why couldnt region 3,4,5 maybe even 8 go to a season like region 7: immy or 3 brow tine 10 point rule, moose is a popular game animal just having the chance at one would apease lots of hunters I would bet???? Why can region 6 have a 7 day any bull season (FOR FREAKING YRS NOW) when right next door regions 5-7 cant!?!? 5-13 just as an example has an incredible moose population, region 7A hunters have been shooting immy's and calves for yrs there does not appear to be a shortage of moose there??? Region 7B mule deer bucks closed till Nov 1 WTF!?!?!? I was there a few yrs back the farmer I talked to begged me to shoot 10 he said that was 10 less he would hit with his car that makes no sense the deer were running around like field mice have video of herds of bucks and doe's alike it was insane but bucks were closed!?!?! We could go on and on with lots of different examples. I talked about this on a number of occassions region 8 mule deer closing a month sooner than 3 right next door???? makes no sense to me I have seen over 100 deer in a 4 km stretch in region 8 but it was closed to rifle for 3 weeks by then ridiculus! I honestly think they could alot more time more opportunity and apease many hunters IMO

[Gamebuster]

they're out more than you think in some regions at least not only doing surveys but all kinds of other projects. Also lots of them hunt too, so what makes you better source of info curt?

[curt]

I've never claimed to be a better source of info in fact I have asked lots of question on this site, to the ministry and to people personally, my view point is based on what I myself see and experience and of course hear from others. I would be more than content if somebody with more knowledge and experience than myself ( and trust me I know there are plenty) could come up with some reasonable explainations to some of the thought process involved with some of theses decisions!?!? Unfortunately I have yet to hear anything concrete about many issue's I've asked about, it's a whole lot of blah blah blah politcial this political that.............It's just my opinion but I honestly beleive the ministry has the ability to improve seasons, give us more options and opportunity,and definately in some area's reduce restrictions!? I also beleive that making our resource more "user friendly or appealing" for lack of a better term will recruit our sport, and although some may not want more hunters on their turf the reality is the fewer we are the quieter our voice gets. We are in a generation of hugging trees, and protecting all living things, and from a political stand point, "squeeky wheel will get the grease", so it is frustrating to know we are a dying breed!? I'm interested with everyone's opinions and experiences , I take this stuff serious and to heart as many of us on here do, we are the ones heavily invested here it's our resource we deserve to be in the loop and have some input......

[6616]

I've never claimed to be a better source of info in fact I have asked lots of question on this site, to the ministry and to people personally, my view point is based on what I myself see and experience and of course hear from others. I would be more than content if somebody with more knowledge and experience than myself ( and trust me I know there are plenty) could come up with some reasonable explainations to some of the thought process involved with some of theses decisions!?!? Unfortunately I have yet to hear anything concrete about many issue's I've asked about, it's a whole lot of blah blah blah politcial this political that.............It's just my opinion but I honestly beleive the ministry has the ability to improve seasons, give us more options and opportunity,and definately in some area's reduce restrictions!? I also beleive that making our resource more "user friendly or appealing" for lack of a better term will recruit our sport, and although some may not want more hunters on their turf the reality is the fewer we are the quieter our voice gets. We are in a generation of hugging trees, and protecting all living things, and from a political stand point, "squeeky wheel will get the grease", so it is frustrating to know we are a dying breed!? I'm interested with everyone's opinions and experiences , I take this stuff serious and to heart as many of us on here do, we are the ones heavily invested here it's our resource we deserve to be in the loop and have some input......

When it comes to political and social decisions regarding wildlife management like allocation, management objectives, etc, we the citizens should be making the decisions through consultation process, bios should have little to say unless it effects sustainability.

When it comes to scientific decisions like establishing a sustainable annual allowable harvest we can't and we need to primarily rely on the bios knowledge and training, but we should still be in the loop and demanding explanations and justifications for bios decisions.

My opinion.

[Husky7mm]

curt
Sometime hunting can be frusurating, did it ever occur to you that you are seeing that game because it is not pressured by being on a long overlapping GOS. Many people say the game must have copy of the regulations(lol) but sometimes it sure feels that way.
The area you speak of is probably very handy to the lowermainland and the rest of the provinces' hunting popualtion. My bet would be that if the opening of deer season overlapped the immy opener the available immies would be cleaned up real quick because many like yourself want to have a chance for whatever they see while they're out. Because many opening days start at different times in different regions, it make hunters jump around alot trying to plan their hunts around the best most attractive opening day opportunities. ie multi species overlapping seasons.
Without having everything open province wide at the same time you will never stop people from trying to be 2 places at once.
That is why the season doesnt over lap. Sometimes less is more if you follow.
Also keep in mind what is works for region 6 moose does not necessarily work for region 4 moose, not only are there less in region 4 but they are a different species. They almost all start as spike fork, and rarley make tri-palm. That is just one example. 3,4,5,6,8,7 their all different
Maby it is time to hunt somewhere a little different rather than lets say your first or your handiest choice. Put in for draws with lower odds. Many great opportinitys all over the province and some draw are almost a gimmie. If I only put in local here in the koots I could likley never get a draw for moose.
How lucky of a person are you?
Like many said earlier it likely is not the bios fault, and they are passionate about what they do, until someone figures it all out perfectly expect mostly more of the same.
Hunters really are their worst enemy we could be the loudest voice in the province but we just bitch amongst ourselves.

[curt]

Good post 7mm you make some good points for sure but trust me I have been hunting for over 20yrs I've hunted every region in this province I get around. I use region 3 as an example because it works. I just play devils advocate and look at it from all angles, If you have been around which by the well articulated msg I would say you have been, would you agree that the ministry could very well provide us with more options and more opening than they currently are.... maybe you cant or wont but I'm not convinced they cant. As for as the Bio's go I'm not putting 100% of this on them I get there are other factors, groups involved in the decision process, but I'll tell you I've heard it from the horses mouth in Victoria and I quote " some biologist's are reluctant and more overly conservative than others" I can read between the lines here!! Do you not think when region 6 is the only region in the western portion of the province the any bull season "in theory" would be as you say "cleaned up real quick" but its not and it's not from a lack of hunters trust me I've done it friends do it every year the hunting pressure is intense!!! Or how about the calf moose season in region 7 if you havent been lucky enough to get a cherrished LEH for moose then your going to one of those regions to find one its been happening for years and there is still plenty of moose?!?!? When you speak of the moose rarely making tri palm in region 4 good point I didnt know that... but rarely doesnt mean always and my point was even having the opportunity for a needle in a hay stack is better than nothing at all!! Ya there are many great opportunities all over the province but some of those "gimme" area's you speak of , we both know the access is less than favorable for many hunters without thousands sunk into river boats, argo's, fancy 4x4's Im sure you get the point!? The odds are great because the average guy cant get there so they dont waste the time or money applying!? Like I said before so far for evey argument I've heard I can throw back another idea contradicting that so I'm not convinced, I'm not convinced the ministry isnt just happy taking us for as much money from LEH and Licence fee's and really not putting in the best effort out for us that they can at providing us with the best opportunity available?? For the most part I think everyone has roughly the same idea or agenda perhaps people go about it differently but these types of forums are a great way to bounce idea's and issue's off one another I would'nt call it bitching at least not all the time. I wouldnt be able to get the insight or the opinions from the eperienced outdoorsmen from just the average Joe I talk to everyday it's from guys like you!

[Fisher-Dude]

Rather odd how we had long GOS any bull moose and overlapping long GOS 3 point elk in region 4E for decades, with twice the number of hunters that we have today, and they weren't "all shot off." In fact, the populations did so well that the elk had to be culled with thousands of cow/calf LEHs.

Hunters are indeed their own worst enemies when they scream for social management.

[curt]

Rather odd how we had long GOS any bull moose and overlapping long GOS 3 point elk in region 4E for decades, with twice the number of hunters that we have today, and they weren't "all shot off." In fact, the populations did so well that the elk had to be culled with thousands of cow/calf LEHs.

Hunters are indeed their own worst enemies when they scream for social management.
Exactly my point so for whatever reason political, social, pressure from guides, local tree huggers or guys with the attitude they live and it's their back yard BS, wtf ever we arent getting the opportunity that is available and we deserve more!!

[Husky7mm]

Sure we diserve more! We are the biggest stake holder! I would love more, I believe we should be "farming" for wildlife, enhancing the land to handle a high carrying capacity, thinning the weeds( preditors), having long liberal seasons and ample game for everyone. Putting fences along high collosion areas of the highway and train tracks, winter feed programs if nessacary etc.... but it would cost hugh money and EVERYONE would need to be involved, so its really just a pipe dream. But sure they could change plenty, Take Region 7's calf hunt,(moose cull) that reign of terror should have ended when the BIO that implamented it retired. Could you imagine how many moose there would be to go around if they were'nt harvested up stream of reproduction! Many say the calves would suffer a 50% mortality rate any way, I say its because they're being ate. A big effort should be put in to curb that. In this day and age of massive beetle kill clear cuts, and willing and informed hunters ready to travel its not a capacity issue, its a mortality issue, by one means or the other. IMO

FD the past called and they want there stats back, just cause it does'nt jive with what your selling doesnt mean it aint true, things have changed, except it!

[Islandeer]

Husky, I think you local boys are shooting way to much,the whole countries shot out. We went looking for our moose in the EK and couldn't get one.

[Husky7mm]

Husky, I think you local boys are shooting way to much,the whole countries shot out. We went looking for our moose in the EK and couldn't get one.
Haha Thats cause their my moose and I killed them all!:lol:;-)

[GoatGuy]

But sure they could change plenty, Take Region 7's calf hunt,(moose cull) that reign of terror should have ended when the BIO that implamented it retired. Could you imagine how many moose there would be to go around if they were'nt harvested up stream of reproduction! Many say the calves would suffer a 50% mortality rate any way, I say its because they're being ate. A big effort should be put in to curb that. In this day and age of massive beetle kill clear cuts, and willing and informed hunters ready to travel its not a capacity issue, its a mortality issue, by one means or the other. IMO

This isn't accurate. The harvest strategy is not based on one biologist (you do know who you're refering right?), it is actually based on research from the best moose bios in NA - and it is still supported today.

It can be somewhat difficult to understand and there is the possibility of over-harvest but not how and for all the reasons you think. Oddly enough you'll find the Ominecas moose population is generally stable whereas southern regions without a selective harvest strategy are generally seeing wide scale population declines (probably habitat and particularly predation related). Omineca has had wolves, grizzlies and black bears for years and continues to sustainably manage moose with calf, cow, yearling bull amd any bull harvest.

You'll also find other areas across NA that are seeing population declines for reasons other than predation.

Guess long story short is the answer isnt the same everywhere and applying social pressures to scientific questions results in poor outcomes for wildlife and hunters.

[Husky7mm]

This isn't accurate. The harvest strategy is not based on one biologist (you do know who you're refering right?), it is actually based on research from the best moose bios in NA - and it is still supported today.

It can be somewhat difficult to understand and there is the possibility of over-harvest but not how and for all the reasons you think. Oddly enough you'll find the Ominecas moose population is generally stable whereas southern regions without a selective harvest strategy are generally seeing wide scale population declines (probably habitat and particularly predation related). Omineca has had wolves, grizzlies and black bears for years and continues to sustainably manage moose with calf, cow, yearling bull amd any bull harvest.

You'll also find other areas across NA that are seeing population declines for reasons other than predation.

Guess long story short is the answer isnt the same everywhere and applying social pressures to scientific questions results in poor outcomes for wildlife and hunters.

Well it is just my IMO. Perhaps there is less predation in that area over all because the majority of the easy picken are removed within the first half a year..... No doubt their system does work the proof is in the pudding, its a bit of a mind bogler though. What seems to sustain there numbers is what is slipping though the cracks. Dont you ever wonder how many moose there REALLY could be there if it were done differently? Compounding numbers, of moose, sure more hunters to follow, but more moose, and not just a hunderd pounds of it either but a whole frezzer full. Is there a capacity issue there? I am sure there is more than one way to manage that region.
Anyways as for who I am referring to I dont know the exact name of the fellow, just had"coffee" with his brother who was in disagrement with him about the whole thing and some crazy deer ideas as well. Why is it you? lol
I am sure all bios dont agree with each other, I see a large number of names everytime there is a change, or article and so on, so I guess its more a meeting of the minds sometimes not just one's own thoughts. I can't see all of todays BIO's agreeing with the respected Valerius Geist on all topics, he seems to look at things in a different light, but is well know anyways.

I also think of the productive region 5, which was out of this world for mule deer hunting, deer literally everywhere, multiple chances a day let alone sighting, But perhapes in their case the carring cappacity was reached(i'm guessing) and the season was changed, Anybuck into nov, genorous bag limits and piles of doe tags. Now theres lots of crying. Does it have to be like that.......? Its increase in popularity was on the grow before the reg changes, the increase in hunters that was starting may have looked after keeping the deer numbers at bay without the big changes. Deer for everyone. I say knee jerk in the opposit end of the scale. Hope what I am trying to say makes sense. And agian Just IMO.

[Sitkaspruce]

Well it is just my IMO. Perhaps there is less predation in that area over all because the majority of the easy picken are removed within the first half a year..... No doubt their system does work the proof is in the pudding, its a bit of a mind bogler though. What seems to sustain there numbers is what is slipping though the cracks. Dont you ever wonder how many moose there REALLY could be there if it were done differently? Compounding numbers, of moose, sure more hunters to follow, but more moose, and not just a hunderd pounds of it either but a whole frezzer full. Is there a capacity issue there? I am sure there is more than one way to manage that region.

So what do you suggest?? What would you like to see, just a LEH for bulls and a GOS for S/F, with no opportunity for other hunters to be able to put some meat in the freezer?? With the current system, at least we can all hunt moose in region 7a. Going back to a Bull only with draw will reduce hunter numbers, increase pressure on certain areas, increase the preds even more and probably increase the odds on the draw.

Maybe, with the reduced number of calves, the chosen CC is maintained and there is some play room in population numbers.

I like what is happening in 7a and think it should stay the same, but what would be even better is a GOS on bulls period. Get rid of the LEH and have a GOS. You can reduce the pressure by spreading out the season and if you are that worried about the numbers killed, then close during the rut, say Oct 1-15.

Also get rid of the stupid point restriction in 7b and have a GOS there as well, with the same times as 7a, that will spread out the pressure even more.


Anyways as for who I am referring to I dont know the exact name of the fellow, just had"coffee" with his brother who was in disagrement with him about the whole thing and some crazy deer ideas as well. Why is it you? lol
I am sure all bios dont agree with each other, I see a large number of names everytime there is a change, or article and so on, so I guess its more a meeting of the minds sometimes not just one's own thoughts. I can't see all of todays BIO's agreeing with the respected Valerius Geist on all topics, he seems to look at things in a different light, but is well know anyways.

I also think of the productive region 5, which was out of this world for mule deer hunting, deer literally everywhere, multiple chances a day let alone sighting, But perhapes in their case the carring cappacity was reached(i'm guessing) and the season was changed, Anybuck into nov, genorous bag limits and piles of doe tags. Now theres lots of crying. Does it have to be like that.......? Its increase in popularity was on the grow before the reg changes, the increase in hunters that was starting may have looked after keeping the deer numbers at bay without the big changes. Deer for everyone. I say knee jerk in the opposit end of the scale. Hope what I am trying to say makes sense. And agian Just IMO.

Cheers

SS

[Fisher-Dude]

If 30 years of producing over 50% of BC's annual moose harvest, year after year, isn't proof enough that the 7A model is THE correct way of managing moose populations, then there's no hope for the Huskys of the world. We may as well throw in the towel and just let him talk to himself.

[Husky7mm]

For sure the pressure will be spread out if the season opens and closes at a the same time, and that probably would work. As for what I would like it would be get the supply up and have it GOS Bulls. Unless there is a CC issue( which I doubt). Thats many more new females calfs making it to a breeding age and that many more bulls being born every year in the future, componding the moose population so there are just plain and simply more of them, If this creats an increase in the preditors you increase the LEH on the grizzly or more, increase everything against the wolves, ie NOB no closed season, bounty, ect.... lots of inventory, lots of happy hunters lots of opportunity. Should be sustainable should it not? I bet we kind of already agreed

[Husky7mm]

If 30 years of producing over 50% of BC's annual moose harvest, year after year, isn't proof enough that the 7A model is THE correct way of managing moose populations, then there's no hope for the Huskys of the world. We may as well throw in the towel and just let him talk to himself.

I cant argue it works for 7A amazingly enough, like I said when you read my WHOLE POST.
That area is great for moose. Maby it could be even better!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I cant argue it works for 7A amazingly enough, like I said when you read my WHOLE POST.
That area is great for moose. Maby it could be even better!

Maybe the other regions would have more productive moose #'s if they had implemented 7A's harvest strategy instead of just breeding up the predators.

SSS

[Husky7mm]

Sometimes the difference in regs from one MU to the next or adjoining regions can make a guy cross eyed. Open here, close here 1 point 3 point 6-10 points, jump here, jump there.......
Feels like a cigarete company mixing tabbaco, one chemical to make it burn, and one to make it not burn. :confused:
Just more of the supply to match the demand, loosen up on the regs and spread it all around so the pressures even. Would'nt it be nice.......

[Husky7mm]

Maybe the other regions would have more productive moose #'s if they had implemented 7A's harvest strategy instead of just breeding up the predators.

SSS
Maby you should all read this.... especially the last part
http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://idahoforwildlife.com/Website%2520articles/Dr%2520Geist/The%2520effects%2520of%2520thousands%2520of%2520im poverished%2520trappers%2520and%2520wolf%2520bount ies%2520in%2520northern%2520Alberta%2520early%2520 in%2520the%252020the%2520century%2520on%2520predat ors,%2520and%2520its%2520relation%2520to%2520the%2 520myth%2520of%2520the%2520harmless%2520wolf..pdf&sa=U&ei=A18HT7-DCYLUiAKZ4f2ICQ&ved=0CBEQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNGh1s7v3TaSgDS4Hcb_fgDe-PSNyA

[BCrams]

If 30 years of producing over 50% of BC's annual moose harvest, year after year, isn't proof enough that the 7A model is THE correct way of managing moose populations, then there's no hope for the Huskys of the world. We may as well throw in the towel and just let him talk to himself.

Strange how Region 5 ranks the 7a model as the highest risk and least feasible option to be considered for changes in Region 5. :roll:

[Husky7mm]

Strange how Region 5 ranks the 7a model as the highest risk and least feasible option to be considered for changes in Region 5. :roll:

How longs it been since the model was challenged there, maby 7a could be amazing rather than just consistant?

[Sitkaspruce]

For sure the pressure will be spread out if the season opens and closes at a the same time, and that probably would work. As for what I would like it would be get the supply up and have it GOS Bulls. Unless there is a CC issue( which I doubt). Thats many more new females calfs making it to a breeding age and that many more bulls being born every year in the future, componding the moose population so there are just plain and simply more of them, If this creats an increase in the preditors you increase the LEH on the grizzly or more, increase everything against the wolves, ie NOB no closed season, bounty, ect.... lots of inventory, lots of happy hunters lots of opportunity. Should be sustainable should it not? I bet we kind of already agreed

I think that enough cows must be reaching breeding age as we keep getting a stable to slight population increase. How do we know that 7a is not near CC???

And we have beat the pred thing to death and we all know that it is the second most political program that MOE/hunters have had to deal with. If we get more moose and the pred numbers do increase, I would not bet on getting more grizz LEH, NBL/ASL wolf hunting....way too political to bet moose number on.


How longs it been since the model was challenged there, maby 7a could be amazing rather than just consistant?

I already think 7a works the best we have seen in BC, now we need to get it put into effect in the rest on BC.....or better yet, the GOS program would probably work best.....but that in my opinion, just like you have yours.

Cheers

SS

[Husky7mm]

I dont think many would support a GOS there or porvince wide without an increase in the moose supply... In fact I highly doubt it. As fair as CC?????? Its a massive province, God forbid the moose increase and expand in it!! When less hunters go home empty handed then lets take about having too many moose....

[GoatGuy]

Well it is just my IMO. Perhaps there is less predation in that area over all because the majority of the easy picken are removed within the first half a year.....

This is a large part of it, it's called compensatory mortality.

If you can remove the some of the calves that would have died anyways you will end up with the same number of calves making it through the winter AND actually end up with lower predator populations. The problem would be if you removed too many calves where you could end up with a population decline.

So you can essentially end up with higher hunter harvest, more dynamic and larger moose population as well as a lower predator population.


No doubt their system does work the proof is in the pudding, its a bit of a mind bogler though. What seems to sustain there numbers is what is slipping though the cracks. Dont you ever wonder how many moose there REALLY could be there if it were done differently?

It was done differently until the early 80s when the social structure of the moose population was a complete mess resulting in high bull mortality, cows not being bred until the second or third estrous multiple which resulted in a long and drawn out birthing period resulting in extremely high calf mortality. All that spells major population decline. And this happened way back when predation was not a 'huge issue'.


Compounding numbers, of moose, sure more hunters to follow, but more moose, and not just a hunderd pounds of it either but a whole frezzer full. Is there a capacity issue there? I am sure there is more than one way to manage that region.
Anyways as for who I am referring to I dont know the exact name of the fellow, just had"coffee" with his brother who was in disagrement with him about the whole thing and some crazy deer ideas as well. Why is it you? lol
I am sure all bios dont agree with each other, I see a large number of names everytime there is a change, or article and so on, so I guess its more a meeting of the minds sometimes not just one's own thoughts. I can't see all of todays BIO's agreeing with the respected Valerius Geist on all topics, he seems to look at things in a different light, but is well know anyways.
No, there isn't a capacity issue - that's how we're supposed to manage wildlife. Keep the populations productive by harvesting across both sexes and age classes well below the carrying capacity of the land so we don't create long-term damage for the habitat like has been done in the EK.

Deer in 7a are a different breed because most of that region is subject to high winter severity. What that means is if you stockpile they will all die off in less than 10 year intervals, so when the going's good you get out and shoot some deer because they will die anyways. It's kind of like having a cartoon of milk in your fridge - it isn't something you can save for a rainy day, you're best drinking it before it sours.

Val's easy to disagree with on some stuff because it isn't all based on science. The shs is pretty hard stuff to argue with.

There aren't any researchers or respected biologists that I'm aware of that do not support the selective harvest strategy for moose. Literally none.


I also think of the productive region 5, which was out of this world for mule deer hunting, deer literally everywhere, multiple chances a day let alone sighting, But perhapes in their case the carring cappacity was reached(i'm guessing) and the season was changed, Anybuck into nov, genorous bag limits and piles of doe tags. Now theres lots of crying. Does it have to be like that.......? Its increase in popularity was on the grow before the reg changes, the increase in hunters that was starting may have looked after keeping the deer numbers at bay without the big changes. Deer for everyone. I say knee jerk in the opposit end of the scale. Hope what I am trying to say makes sense. And agian Just IMO.

There were far more hunters in the Caribou prior to any of the changes in the late 90s where antler restrictions were introduced and then in the 2000s when substantial antlerless harvest was introduced. The objective with the antlerless harvest was to reduce the population particularly in agricultural areas only because things got out of hand. You will notice that there has been a predator explosion in Region 5.... perhaps because the deer and moose populations have been allowed to expand and haven't been 'managed' for years.

Region 5 is a special case and has been managed poorly for years. Opposite to the SHS I don't know any researchers or biologists (both current or retired) who have supported what has gone on in Region 5. There seems to be little to no support for science in Region 5. Seems to be the feast or famine plan as opposed to management - that's where you get the mess.

[GoatGuy]

I dont think many would support a GOS there or porvince wide without an increase in the moose supply... In fact I highly doubt it. As fair as CC?????? Its a massive province, God forbid the moose increase and expand in it!! When less hunters go home empty handed then lets take about having too many moose....

Still talking about hunters, let's talk about moose.

[GoatGuy]

How longs it been since the model was challenged there, maby 7a could be amazing rather than just consistant?

It's challenged all the time. Unfortunately the people who challenge it don't know anything about moose ecology or management which makes it a complete waste of time.

They also tried a bull GOS in 87-88 IIRC - didn't work.

Having the most sustainable management strategy and supporting the highest density moose and moose hunter populations is amazing IMO.

[GoatGuy]

Strange how Region 5 ranks the 7a model as the highest risk and least feasible option to be considered for changes in Region 5. :roll:

Depends on your definition of strange. Personally would have used the word predictable.

[Husky7mm]

GG Your good!
What factors in the 80's to put every tom, dick and joe hunter up there (7a) at once, decamating the the bulls during GOS and causing a sperm problem? Attractive seasons, other moose area's were not producting or had to much restrictions, more access, less access?

Also in region 5 could it be even a bit beleivable that the preditor spike is due to the absense of preditor control for the last 40 yrs and its just starting to hurt really bad lately? They have less game now than they did approx. 10 yrs ago dont they? Why now?

[Husky7mm]

Forgive me if I missed it what is SHS?

[GoatGuy]

GG Your good!
What factors in the 80's to put every tom, dick and joe hunter up there (7a) at once, decamating the the bulls during GOS and causing a sperm problem? Attractive seasons, other moose area's were not producting or had to much restrictions, more access, less access?

Also in region 5 could it be even a bit beleivable that the preditor spike is due to the absense of preditor control for the last 40 yrs and its just starting to hurt really bad lately? They have less game now than they did approx. 10 yrs ago dont they? Why now?

Yes, obviously over-harvest of all bulls which resulted in under-representation of 3-4+ year old bulls which through the entire population for a loop. BC didn't really know much about moose ecology at the time and often over-exploited bulls. The SHS (selective harvest strategy) addresses all the basic principles for wildlife management and alleviates all the issues surrounding high hunter demand and bull only harvest.

Now it could be predators and habitat. But also not controlling wildlife populations have probably created this opportunity for increased predator populations. Wolves really only came on strong in the last couple of years which coincides with super high deer populations as well as a moose population that had increased significantly since 97 with little to no antlerless harvest and no change in hunting opportunity. The ranchers in the cariboo used to burn the countryside regularly to create grazing opportunities, but often they burned in the wrong areas which produced huge tracts of willows and alders - moose heaven. So it's not an easy answer and there's probably a few different issues at play. However, if anything's consistent in Region 5 it will be the same as the sheep - no plan just watch them dwindle and change regulations.

[Husky7mm]

Yes, obviously over-harvest of all bulls )

But what else was going on at the time to put that many people there, just the usual moose hunters who were allowed to shoot any bull or was there other factors?

( if anything's consistent in Region 5 it will be the same as the sheep - no plan just watch them dwindle and change regulations.

Funny they still have a season?:confused:

[6616]

But also not controlling wildlife populations have probably created this opportunity for increased predator populations.

Bears a lot of resemblance to the East Kootenay - with high elk populations, runaway white tailed deer populations supporting high predator populations, lots of winter range habitat compromised,,, but of course everyone blaming 2 years of 30 day any buck season for a decline in mulw deer.

[Sitkaspruce]

I dont think many would support a GOS there or porvince wide without an increase in the moose supply... In fact I highly doubt it. As fair as CC?????? Its a massive province, God forbid the moose increase and expand in it!! When less hunters go home empty handed then lets take about having too many moose....

Name a hunter who would not want a GOS for moose in BC???

Who says there is not enough moose in BC??? Hell, 80 years ago, there was very few moose south and east of Burns Lake. Moose are not actually the main animal FN's hunted in the region back then, it was Mt Goats mixed with a few moose and deer.

If you had region 5, 6 and 7 all go to a GOS, it would open up moose hunting to lots of hunters and would spread out the pressure across most of the province for moose, instead of concentrating them into certain MU's basically between Sept 25th to Oct 15th....and if you had a GOS, then there could be less pressure on those calves.

And the moose pop could support a GOS, it did for years when we had double the hunters. If there is a concern, then shut down the rut, when most bulls are taken. Keep the calf and LEH cow draw.

It is sad that most of these issues are really a social issue and not a scientific one. Politicians and the many different user groups dictate more about seasons and limits than scientific reasons. in a lot of game management.
Good discussion

Cheers

SS

[Husky7mm]

6616 Well it certainly was the cause for the declined of the bucks in some parts but not population as a whole, but you already know that.

[BCrams]

They also tried a bull GOS in 87-88 IIRC - didn't work.

Having the most sustainable management strategy and supporting the highest density moose and moose hunter populations is amazing IMO.

You are correct on the GOS. iirc - it occured during the last week of the season and I recal being really mad at my Dad for not pulling me out of school to go hunt when he and two others went out and took 3 bulls in 2 days.


Depends on your definition of strange. Personally would have used the word predictable.

:lol: I'd say given the history of moose in Region 5 - they should adopt the wheel instead of trying to reinvent things and giver a trial run.

[Husky7mm]

For a period of time was not region 5 the biggest producer of moose? I would have to look up the years.

:shock:3 bulls in three days sounds like fun, but being that it was at the end of the season maby thats why the harvest was so extreme? Only one guess why they thought it would work only to have the wheels fall off.

[Husky7mm]

Name a hunter who would not want a GOS for moose in BC??? Many if there was not considerable changes to the whole system

Who says there is not enough moose in BC??? Hell, 80 years ago, there was very few moose south and east of Burns Lake. Moose are not actually the main animal FN's hunted in the region back then, it was Mt Goats mixed with a few moose and deer. 80 years ago we didnt have what we do today jet boats, google earth, money,holidays ....................... hunters are pretty deadly today

If you had region 5, 6 and 7 all go to a GOS, it would open up moose hunting to lots of hunters and would spread out the pressure across most of the province for moose, instead of concentrating them into certain MU's basically between Sept 25th to Oct 15th....and if you had a GOS, then there could be less pressure on those calves. If it all worked out perfect

And the moose pop could support a GOS, it did for years when we had double the hunters. If there is a concern, then shut down the rut, when most bulls are taken. Keep the calf and LEH cow draw.

It is sad that most of these issues are really a social issue and not a scientific one. Politicians and the many different user groups dictate more about seasons and limits than scientific reasons. in a lot of game management. I hear this alot lately but not all bio's agree on everything, some add in a little heart, and logic, maby even some bias, some even have stated rebuttals. :shock: no one is perfect
Good discussion

Cheers

SS
BTW of coarse a GOS would be nice if if if if ............

[Fisher-Dude]

80 years ago we didnt have what we do today jet boats, google earth, money,holidays ....................... hunters are pretty deadly today




80 years ago people just went out and shot a moose for their winter supply of meat. Not too many went home empty handed. Still the moose population ballooned.

Nowadays, we have Super Hunters that can't find a 135 class 4 point mulw deer and claim they are all dead. I think they may be too obsessed with what Google Earth says instead of just going hunting and shooting a deer.

[6616]

Nowadays, we have Super Hunters that can't find a 135 class 4 point mulw deer and claim they are all dead. I think they may be too obsessed with what Google Earth says instead of just going hunting and shooting a deer.

------------------- :)

[Sitkaspruce]

"80 years ago we didnt have what we do today jet boats, google earth, money,holidays ....................... hunters are pretty deadly today"

and yet hunters still only have a 30% success average on LEH hunts, GOS in Reg 6 and 7b, so how will the GOS make it easier???

Cheers

SS

[Husky7mm]

80 years ago people just went out and shot a moose for their winter supply of meat. Not too many went home empty handed. Still the moose population ballooned.

Nowadays, we have Super Hunters that can't find a 135 class 4 point mulw deer and claim they are all dead. I think they may be too obsessed with what Google Earth says instead of just going hunting and shooting a deer.

I'm sure the hunters of 80 yr ago where succesful at filling their frezzer or cold room or celler, but I doubt 80 years ago the residents of region 4 were up hunting in region 7 while the region 7 guys where down in 4, and the like in all other regions.... Different times

Also your the last guy to talk about spending too much time on the computer:lol::lol:, talk about the pot calling the kettle black....
Mind you I would have a lot of free time on my hands if I shot the first cow or doe or spike I saw, rather than enjoy being out the whole season experiencing the true essence of the hunt. After all it is called hunting...

[Husky7mm]

"80 years ago we didnt have what we do today jet boats, google earth, money,holidays ....................... hunters are pretty deadly today"

and yet hunters still only have a 30% success average on LEH hunts, GOS in Reg 6 and 7b, so how will the GOS make it easier???

Cheers

SS

Every LEH hunt I have done in Region 7 has been 100% and a hell of agood time too. GOS is will not be easier unless the supply and season are changed. I dont get you questioning it, didn't you state you wanted a GOS?

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm sure the hunters of 80 yr ago where succesful at filling their frezzer or cold room or celler, but I doubt 80 years ago the residents of region 4 were up hunting in region 7 while the region 7 guys where down in 4, and the like in all other regions.... Different times

Also your the last guy to talk about spending too much time on the computer:lol::lol:, talk about the pot calling the kettle black....
Mind you I would have a lot of free time on my hands if I shot the first cow or doe or spike I saw, rather than enjoy being out the whole season experiencing the true essence of the hunt. After all it is called hunting...


That's why you cry. You're afraid to pull the trigger, while I have a freezer full of delicious game meat. I don't have to puff my chest up on HBC with a picture of some grandiose animal - I go out, enjoy the experience, shoot some good meat, and am proud to share it with people on here regardless of what I harvest. It's not a contest for me, that's why I enjoy the hunt and the experience, rather than whimper that I couldn't find what I wanted. It's also why I don't cry about other hunters "spoiling my hunt", because they don't. I get about 50 - 60 trips out per season, and I'm just as happy to play packhorse and driver for my friends if I've already tagged out. I hunt the same areas I hunted 40 years ago with my dad.

My dick's big enough and my confidence matches - seems you have a problem that you're compensating for, and have lost touch with what it's all about.

Have you ever posted a picture and hunt story on here for the rest of us to enjoy, and maybe help a few newbies learn from you what tactics work? Not from a quick review of the threads you've started - all I see is whining about "all the turkeys are gone" and "too many hunters."

[Islandeer]

Tell us how you really feel FD !! ha ha

[Sitkaspruce]

Every LEH hunt I have done in Region 7 has been 100% and a hell of agood time too. GOS is will not be easier unless the supply and season are changed. I dont get you questioning it, didn't you state you wanted a GOS?

I mentioned a GOS and you say we need more moose and that hunter are a lot better at hunting then they were 80 years ago. I mentioned that even with all the new stuff that we have today for hunting, that success rates are still only around 30%. for areas with LEH and GOS.

So if we only have a 30 % success rate on open tags, how would a GOS lead to an over harvest if it is spread out across regions 5,6,7 and maybe even 3.

Still do not understand why you are against a GOS for moose in certain regions?? or are you against the calf season in 7a, or what?????

Cheers

SS

[Husky7mm]

FD
Well the stats confirmed my worries yet you could care less.
Being somewhat selective I know I am not one hard on the game population. Your want of liberal shoot anything seasons is no less selfish than my desire for conservative ones when they are needed.
My post are observations from always being out there in the woods. I dont site in front of computer all day typing up stories like so many that for the most part are yawners. Plus I type way to slow anyways, I just would'nt get anything done.
As for wangs and confidence I am not the one who needs to reassure ones self on public forums.
I always am shocked that I have to be attacked for my opinions and obseravtions, we all think differently, axcept it. Never claimed to be an expert on anything. You dont like what I see or what Ive obsereved and my interpration of it, to bad, go take the sexual journey with your self.

You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.”http://thinkexist.com/i/sq/as5.gif Walt Disney quote (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/you_may_not_realize_it_when_it_happens-but_a_kick/15869.html)

[Fisher-Dude]

You claim to be attacked, but you're the one who attacked the type of animals I prefer to shoot (which, BTW, is a violation of forum rules). That's quite ironic.

[Husky7mm]

I mentioned a GOS and you say we need more moose and that hunter are a lot better at hunting then they were 80 years ago. I mentioned that even with all the new stuff that we have today for hunting, that success rates are still only around 30%. for areas with LEH and GOS.

So if we only have a 30 % success rate on open tags, how would a GOS lead to an over harvest if it is spread out across regions 5,6,7 and maybe even 3.

Still do not understand why you are against a GOS for moose in certain regions?? or are you against the calf season in 7a, or what?????

Cheers

SS
Sorry I missed that the success for both was 30%, If it were spread out over the regions with very good moose populations and somehow the hunters were distrubed accordingly, IMO its if everything went perfect

History shows alot of peeks and valleys. At this time the calf season feels like a moose cull to me. I can not agrue with its consistancy. So I guess I can for now follow my own quote that less is more. Cheers Thanks for being civil!

[Husky7mm]

You claim to be attacked, but you're the one who attacked the type of animals I prefer to shoot (which, BTW, is a violation of forum rules). That's quite ironic.

However you see it is how it is right?

[gcreek]

Still talking about hunters, let's talk about moose.

Have you and your following forgotten everything that has been discussed here in the last 2 months about moose? The reason region 5 has restricted hunting is a direct result of overhunting by resident hunters. That is the only variable that changed in this area in the late 80's and early 90's.
Now the pred. numbers are way up and finishing the job. How does one have to explain to your mindset that there are basically no F-ing moose or deer left in the Chilcotin?

Are you a Bio like Sitka also? You sure sound like one.

[gcreek]

That's why you cry. You're afraid to pull the trigger, while I have a freezer full of delicious game meat. I don't have to puff my chest up on HBC with a picture of some grandiose animal - I go out, enjoy the experience, shoot some good meat, and am proud to share it with people on here regardless of what I harvest. It's not a contest for me, that's why I enjoy the hunt and the experience, rather than whimper that I couldn't find what I wanted. It's also why I don't cry about other hunters "spoiling my hunt", because they don't. I get about 50 - 60 trips out per season, and I'm just as happy to play packhorse and driver for my friends if I've already tagged out. I hunt the same areas I hunted 40 years ago with my dad.

My dick's big enough and my confidence matches - seems you have a problem that you're compensating for, and have lost touch with what it's all about.

Have you ever posted a picture and hunt story on here for the rest of us to enjoy, and maybe help a few newbies learn from you what tactics work? Not from a quick review of the threads you've started - all I see is whining about "all the turkeys are gone" and "too many hunters."

Fisher Dud.... Your dick's big enough? For what? A gnat? You are one of the most ill-informed blowhards I've ever run across.

A MAN would have had no problem giving simple credentials such as what you do for a living or how much time spent out of a pickup in the actual bush. You aren't even capable of that.
An person with the experience you claim to have wouldn't have asked a novice question like how to tell the difference between male and female moose without antlers but YOU did.

Maybe you should do a little more personal searching and not swallow the Kool-Aid that the MOE "experts" would prefer you to believe and then you would be taken a little more serious. Right now you're just the Dud your handle implies.

[GoatGuy]

Have you and your following forgotten everything that has been discussed here in the last 2 months about moose? The reason region 5 has restricted hunting is a direct result of overhunting by resident hunters. That is the only variable that changed in this area in the late 80's and early 90's.
Now the pred. numbers are way up and finishing the job. How does one have to explain to your mindset that there are basically no F-ing moose or deer left in the Chilcotin?

Are you a Bio like Sitka also? You sure sound like one.

The habitat hasn't changed in the last 30+ years? Predator control hasn't changed in 30+ years? There wasn't a huge issue with tick infestation in the late 90s?

Since the 80s there has been little to no resident or commercial harvest of calves and cows. While there was a tightening of hunting opportunity due to sex ratios, those ratios did not get down to levels that would impact the moose population. Since the late 90s moose has been all GOS in the cariboo and sex ratios have generally been extremely high. What that means is resident and commercial hunting has had little to no impact on the moose population in the cariboo for over 20 years. It is really that simple.

So either the moose population isn't as productive because of habitat, is declining due to predation, due to unregulated harvest (through increased access) or a combination of all three. The only other thing that could have an impact is disease, but that doesn't seem to be on the radar and you don't have a pile of wts running around so it seems unlikely. So, in reality those are the only three variables that can affect the moose population.

Appreciate your caring for wildlife, but if the objective is to help increase moose and deer populations in the Cariboo you're going to have to understand the problem and be informed on the solutions. Over-harvest in the 80s probably did happen, nowadays it isn't even a blip on the radar.

[Fisher-Dude]

Right now you're just the Dud your handle implies.


Sure thing, geek.

[SimilkameenSlayer]

i think some timeout for "dud" and "geek" would be appropriate. lol.

:mrgreen:

[Sitkaspruce]

Are you a Bio like Sitka also?

That's the funniest thing I have heard all day, and I just reffed two hockey games, including a Midget rep, who usually has the best one liners out there, especially when they are losing.....

But that takes the cake........

Try again gcreek.

Husky

Thanks as well

Cheers

SS

[gcreek]

That's the funniest thing I have heard all day, and I just reffed two hockey games, including a Midget rep, who usually has the best one liners out there, especially when they are losing.....

But that takes the cake........

Try again gcreek.

Husky

Thanks as well

Cheers

SS


Sorry SS, I guess I am mistaken. I was referring to something I was sure you had posted about a fellow bio. I must have read it wrong and am not going to take the time to search for the thread.

I will take YOUR word.

[gcreek]

GG, I am referring to a very short period of time from 1987 to 1991 when access in the Anahim Lake area was opened up by logging. The moose population was in no other words, decimated.

20 years later, the game in this area still has limited hunting pressure by LEH, constant pressure by Native hunting and in the last 3 years what was left is fast becoming non-existant with predation. I am not trying to stretch the truth to justify personal gain or for any other reason, just relaying what I see from my perspective.

There is a willow flat between our two ranches that has been a wintering area for 15 to 20 moose in recent years since the haydays before 87. I travel this country every day to feed cattle and to date this winter I have not seen a moose there and only 3 sets of tracks have crossed the road. Everyone else I talk to about moose are seeing the same thing.

I made a trip to Williams Lake yesterday and did not see 1 deer on the whole trip. Normally in recent years I should have counted up to 70 in a round trip. They are simply not here.

When I read posts justifying GOS in the Chilcotin by folks who are not on the ground on a daily basis and speaking as experts it does raise my hackles a touch.

Come for a visit and see for yourself......

[gcreek]

I should have added.... When the Natives here are asking ranchers if they have any beef for sale it might be a sign that moose are in short supply. I have personally been asked this question by 3 families in the last 2 weeks.

[Fisher-Dude]

Maybe if we shut down hunting, we can sell more beef. There's a good idea.

[gcreek]

Maybe if we shut down hunting, we can sell more beef. There's a good idea.

Careful what you wish for. A few more years at status quo and you may be forced into that decision.

[Fisher-Dude]

That would be good for you. Drive the beef prices up with increased demand.

It should be crystal clear what the game is.

[GoatGuy]

GG, I am referring to a very short period of time from 1987 to 1991 when access in the Anahim Lake area was opened up by logging. The moose population was in no other words, decimated.

20 years later, the game in this area still has limited hunting pressure by LEH, constant pressure by Native hunting and in the last 3 years what was left is fast becoming non-existant with predation. I am not trying to stretch the truth to justify personal gain or for any other reason, just relaying what I see from my perspective.

There is a willow flat between our two ranches that has been a wintering area for 15 to 20 moose in recent years since the haydays before 87. I travel this country every day to feed cattle and to date this winter I have not seen a moose there and only 3 sets of tracks have crossed the road. Everyone else I talk to about moose are seeing the same thing.

I made a trip to Williams Lake yesterday and did not see 1 deer on the whole trip. Normally in recent years I should have counted up to 70 in a round trip. They are simply not here.

When I read posts justifying GOS in the Chilcotin by folks who are not on the ground on a daily basis and speaking as experts it does raise my hackles a touch.

Come for a visit and see for yourself......

Nobody said moose numbers aren't down, or way down. Need to stay on topic here.

You seem to think regulated hunting is the problem - at this time that couldn't be any farther from the truth. It has t been an issue since the 80s. Nothing constructive will happen if we're all on the ostrich program, talking about a 4 year period in one area 20 years ago.

[gcreek]

Nobody said moose numbers aren't down, or way down. Need to stay on topic here.

You seem to think regulated hunting is the problem - at this time that couldn't be any farther from the truth. It has t been an issue since the 80s. Nothing constructive will happen if we're all on the ostrich program, talking about a 4 year period in one area 20 years ago.

You're wrong, I have no problem with hunting whatsoever. What I can't endorse is opening a GOS to kill the last of them off.

10 moose - 1 LEH - possible that one moose may live or die

10 moose - GOS - 1000 hunters, possibly get them all.

Is that what you really want?

And yes I was talking about something that happened in the past.... it's called consequence. If you cut a toe off do you think it will grow back without reconstructive surgury?

[GoatGuy]

You're wrong, I have no problem with hunting whatsoever. What I can't endorse is opening a GOS to kill the last of them off.

10 moose - 1 LEH - possible that one moose may live or die

10 moose - GOS - 1000 hunters, possibly get them all.

Is that what you really want?

And yes I was talking about something that happened in the past.... it's called consequence. If you cut a toe off do you think it will grow back without reconstructive surgury?

Sorry, you lost me.

[gcreek]

Sorry, you lost me.


Then that makes two of us. You got a compass? I don't own one.

[40incher]

How do you convince Bio's?!

You get their attention by demanding they be fired if they don't do their job.

It is not in the bureaucratic realm to push their own layered-conservatism-anti-use agenda, as we see so often in B.C. (California North as I call it).

The socialist agenda is alive and well unfortunately.

[dana]

I'm surprised that some of you are actually still responding to Husky. How many times can you say the same thing and he still doesn't get it. First he's an expert on Region 4 deer, now it's moose and deer in 7A and 5?

As for the predator issues in 5, how many have considered the BSE crisis in our cattle industry might have played a serious role in the predator boom? Herd sizes have been cut back drastically. PreBSE the ranchers were pretty darn good at shooting wolves. Post BSE, with small herds, a lot of them stay on the home place and the crown range isn't even used. No ranchers checkin' their cows, out riding the range and pumping lead into every wolf they saw. At the same time deer herds are mulitplying like weeds because of easy easy winters. Without the wolves being kept down by the ranchers, they instead flourished and suddenly are eating more than just the deer, but are bold enough to come onto the home ranch and take some cattle as well.

[GoatGuy]

Then that makes two of us. You got a compass? I don't own one.

So much for science. Why use a compass when you can find your own way.

[GoatGuy]

How do you convince Bio's?!

You get their attention by demanding they be fired if they don't do their job.

It is not in the bureaucratic realm to push their own layered-conservatism-anti-use agenda, as we see so often in B.C. (California North as I call it).

The socialist agenda is alive and well unfortunately.

Find science is a tough issue to argue. Seems like a good starting point for driving change. Afte that it's political.

Work for you?

[bearvalley]

No moose,to many wolves,no GOS,can't shoot calves,oversized clearcuts,roads everywhere,helicopters dumping herbicide on brush. No cattle left since BSE so ranchers are not BLASTING predators.I wonder what happened before the first MOOSE strolled into the Caribou-Chilcotin around 100 years ago.THE MOOSE DO'NT HAVE A CHANCE.

[GoatGuy]

No moose,to many wolves,no GOS,can't shoot calves,oversized clearcuts,roads everywhere,helicopters dumping herbicide on brush. No cattle left since BSE so ranchers are not BLASTING predators.I wonder what happened before the first MOOSE strolled into the Caribou-Chilcotin around 100 years ago.THE MOOSE DO'NT HAVE A CHANCE.

That was usefull, thanks for the contribution. There will be many moose as a result of this insight.

[GoatGuy]

I'm surprised that some of you are actually still responding to Husky. How many times can you say the same thing and he still doesn't get it. First he's an expert on Region 4 deer, now it's moose and deer in 7A and 5?

As for the predator issues in 5, how many have considered the BSE crisis in our cattle industry might have played a serious role in the predator boom? Herd sizes have been cut back drastically. PreBSE the ranchers were pretty darn good at shooting wolves. Post BSE, with small herds, a lot of them stay on the home place and the crown range isn't even used. No ranchers checkin' their cows, out riding the range and pumping lead into every wolf they saw. At the same time deer herds are mulitplying like weeds because of easy easy winters. Without the wolves being kept down by the ranchers, they instead flourished and suddenly are eating more than just the deer, but are bold enough to come onto the home ranch and take some cattle as well.
Come on now, we've all been there, you included.

[gcreek]

The major problem with science is that practical knowlege and solutions are ignored.

[Fisher-Dude]

The major problem with science is that practical knowlege and solutions are ignored.


http://mychinaconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bull-in-a-china-shop.jpg

[gcreek]

A fat steer in a china shop.

Thanks for the self portrait Dud, have anything intelligent to add?

[Husky7mm]

I'm surprised that some of you are actually still responding to Husky. How many times can you say the same thing and he still doesn't get it. First he's an expert on Region 4 deer, now it's moose and deer in 7A and 5?

As for the predator issues in 5, how many have considered the BSE crisis in our cattle industry might have played a serious role in the predator boom? Herd sizes have been cut back drastically. PreBSE the ranchers were pretty darn good at shooting wolves. Post BSE, with small herds, a lot of them stay on the home place and the crown range isn't even used. No ranchers checkin' their cows, out riding the range and pumping lead into every wolf they saw. At the same time deer herds are mulitplying like weeds because of easy easy winters. Without the wolves being kept down by the ranchers, they instead flourished and suddenly are eating more than just the deer, but are bold enough to come onto the home ranch and take some cattle as well.

I have stated many times it was IMO or just observasions. I make no claims of being an expert. :???::roll:I dont jump down anyone throats ever when they express their opinions, they are entitled to them.
If someone throws a rock at me for sharing my opinion they just get a brick right bad. Its always been in that order if you read the whole post.

[Husky7mm]

I'm surprised that some of you are actually still responding to Husky. How many times can you say the same thing and he still doesn't get it. First he's an expert on Region 4 deer, now it's moose and deer in 7A and 5?

As for the predator issues in 5, how many have considered the BSE crisis in our cattle industry might have played a serious role in the predator boom? Herd sizes have been cut back drastically. PreBSE the ranchers were pretty darn good at shooting wolves. Post BSE, with small herds, a lot of them stay on the home place and the crown range isn't even used. No ranchers checkin' their cows, out riding the range and pumping lead into every wolf they saw. At the same time deer herds are mulitplying like weeds because of easy easy winters. Without the wolves being kept down by the ranchers, they instead flourished and suddenly are eating more than just the deer, but are bold enough to come onto the home ranch and take some cattle as well.

I have stated many times it was IMO or just observasions. I make no claims of being an expert. I dont jump down anyone throats ever when they express their opinions, they are entitled to them.
If someone throws a rock at me for sharing my opinion they just get a brick right bad. Its always been in that order if you read the whole post.

[palmer]

For Moose as the GOS were closed in the south , the north took the hit. 8 and 3 were closed and people headed to 4 and 5 and then region 4 went LEH and everybody headed to 5. When 5 went LEH only 6 and 7 left. What we need is one open season for the 3,4,5,6,7 and 8. If you needed you could have a split season maybe 2 weeks in Sept and the last 2 weeks of Oct to avoid the rut, or even bulls in one season and calfs in the next. We need to spread the hunters out but allow them to hunt. LEH is killing hunting My 2 Cents

[gcreek]

As per my personal observations this fall and discussions I have had with other ranchers, hunters, natives and guides in the Chilcotin, it is my uneducated guess that whatever the wildlife counts are this winter, the numbers will have been reduced by 50% by hunting season next fall. I hope I am wrong and that you can all call me full of BS when that time comes around.

When far more wolf tracks and trails are seen than moose or deer there is more than a little something amiss.

I still maintain that it is hard to justify a GOS for any species that is already under the worst pressure than has been seen in over 60 years.

[boxhitch]

I still maintain that it is hard to justify a GOS for any species that is already under the worst pressure than has been seen in over 60 years. Really ? From what ?
What are the hunter numbers if that is what you are refering to ?
Are you speaking large scale lands or about a small piece of the patchwork ?

[gcreek]

Really ? From what ?
What are the hunter numbers if that is what you are refering to ?
Are you speaking large scale lands or about a small piece of the patchwork ?

As the Chilcotin is my home I can only comment on it. Hunters got a lot of game when the logging roads first opened this country up, LEH leveled most of that off except hunting by natives.

Predators are really hitting hard in the last 3 years. This one is the worst yet. Sounds like there are other parts of the province in the same boat.

[GoatGuy]

As per my personal observations this fall and discussions I have had with other ranchers, hunters, natives and guides in the Chilcotin, it is my uneducated guess that whatever the wildlife counts are this winter, the numbers will have been reduced by 50% by hunting season next fall. I hope I am wrong and that you can all call me full of BS when that time comes around.

When far more wolf tracks and trails are seen than moose or deer there is more than a little something amiss.

I still maintain that it is hard to justify a GOS for any species that is already under the worst pressure than has been seen in over 60 years.

That's where science and opinion diverge. In this case there's little room for middle-ground because the science behind a spike-fork moose season is established and defensible whereas an opinion, particularly uninformed, isn't.

And, for the umpteenth time, nobody disagrees that moose populations are down. Do you understand that? Some days.

[6616]

As per my personal observations this fall and discussions I have had with other ranchers, hunters, natives and guides in the Chilcotin, it is my uneducated guess that whatever the wildlife counts are this winter, the numbers will have been reduced by 50% by hunting season next fall. I hope I am wrong and that you can all call me full of BS when that time comes around.

When far more wolf tracks and trails are seen than moose or deer there is more than a little something amiss.

I still maintain that it is hard to justify a GOS for any species that is already under the worst pressure than has been seen in over 60 years.

So if ungulates decline by 50% over the next year there are obviously going to be a lot of starving wolves around. They will hit the cattle herds hard for a time but eventually die-off.

Mismanagement at it's finest,,,, and I don't mean hunting over-harvest due to new logging roads in the '80's and '90's,,,, but rather an under-harvest at some critical time in the more recent past allowing ungulate populatons to get so high that wolves were able to multiply to current levels. Let's not forget wolves don't multiply to such a high density without something (prey) to eat so there must have been a lot of moose and deer around not too long ago...! Sort of blows a deep hole in the theory that over-harvest on the Carrier Lumber Co roads twenty years ago had anything at all to do with the current situation don't you think?

[safarichris]

As per my personal observations this fall and discussions I have had with other ranchers, hunters, natives and guides in the Chilcotin, it is my uneducated guess that whatever the wildlife counts are this winter, the numbers will have been reduced by 50% by hunting season next fall. I hope I am wrong and that you can all call me full of BS when that time comes around.

When far more wolf tracks and trails are seen than moose or deer there is more than a little something amiss.



I still maintain that it is hard to justify a GOS for any species that is already under the worst pressure than has been seen in over 60 years.

Quite true with regards this area. I was quite surprised that on several trips to the ranch North of Alexis Creek, travelling thirty + miles of land I had not seen any Big Game animals. When i was able to spot tracks along the sides of the road, they were wolf tracks. Re growth is starting to afford cover but all the logging roads are still in place obliterating miles and miles of the Chilcotin.

[gcreek]

So if ungulates decline by 50% over the next year there are obviously going to be a lot of starving wolves around. They will hit the cattle herds hard for a time but eventually die-off.

Mismanagement at it's finest,,,, and I don't mean hunting over-harvest due to new logging roads in the '80's and '90's,,,, but rather an under-harvest at some critical time in the more recent past allowing ungulate populatons to get so high that wolves were able to multiply to current levels. Let's not forget wolves don't multiply to such a high density without something (prey) to eat so there must have been a lot of moose and deer around not too long ago...! Sort of blows a deep hole in the theory that over-harvest on the Carrier Lumber Co roads twenty years ago had anything at all to do with the current situation don't you think?

The "Carrier Slaughter" is not something dreamed up, you forget that I and my community saw it happen. It is unfortunate that the group responsible and is feeling the consequence has trouble shouldering the responsibility. At this point you would do far more good in lobbying govt. for a wolf reduction program.

The wolves we are seeing have a lot of northern genetics in them, bigger framed, several nearly white ones have been seen or shot in the last year. It will be interesting to see what females that are killed in the spring are carrying for litter sizes. Even with only 3 pups that survive to next fall that is a 50% increase to the average pack size we are seeing.

And yes, I am not anticipating a predator free year for our cattle. I'm doing something about it, are you?

[safarichris]

The "Carrier Slaughter" is not somthing dreamed up, you forget that is saw it happen. It is unfortunate that the group responsible and is feeling the consequence has trouble shouldering responsibility. At this point you would do far more good in lobbying govt. for a wolf reduction program.

The wolves we are seeing have a lot of northern genetics in them, bigger framed, several nearly white ones have been seen or shot in the last year. It will be interesting to see what females that are killed in the spring are carrying for litter sizes. Even with only 3 pups that survive to next fall that is a 50% increase to the average pack size we are seeing.

And yes, I am not anticipating a predator free year for our cattle. I'm doing something about it, are you?

I find this quite interesting on local news channels as i am spending the winter in Oregon.
A wolf was collared in Oregon and signal one year later located in California.

[Husky7mm]

I find this quite interesting on local news channels as i am spending the winter in Oregon.
A wolf was collared in Oregon and signal one year later located in California.

They are collaring more right now in oregon, maby they can read the writing on the wall from Idaho and the likes. I can only imagine the "wolf wars" the next who knows how many years will see. As for wolves reducing as available prey declines, I believe they will just move on, and I am sure the BIO's are aware of this other wise they would not be collaring. Their reduction should not be done on the backs of the farmers looseing their livestock and livelyhoods because wolves switched from prey to livestock.
Sadly it feels like there is a accepted " tree hugging hippy" attitude amoungs hunters that preditor control is taboo. I guess as top of the food chain some have forgot that we are in control of it. We manipulate the prey numbers and the landscape but for the most part dont manipulate the preditor "competition" numbers when they get to high. Sadly I fear it will it will take wolves switiching to people before something gets done about it.

BTW how many of you have read this?
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/index.html#alternativemoose
It gives massive details on choices for much of what we are talking about. It clearly shows that the moose in 5 are declining even without harvesting females or upstream of reproduction and it give you estamates of the what each choice will look like. Its too late for commenting on and I sure many have but how many of you read these reports before making post about what you think should happen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fill in the blanks on why they are in decline either. Mortality issues..... in one form or the next. It also clearly states its not a CC issue. I wish they had reports that indepts for region 4 mule deer, and clear goals as well. Cheers

[safarichris]

According to my reliable sources active in the program, there are almost double the figures released to the public. The Blue Mountain Elk herd is definitely a healthy herd, despite the almost daily Native harvest. It has been like that for many years. Personally I think it was a bad mistake to not jump on the migrating wolves right away. I suppose time will tell the effect with the wolf program. What amazes me is that with yet the abundance of game available to the wolves, one wolf would travel across Oregon, Nevada and into California. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable might offer his views.

[6616]

The "Carrier Slaughter" is not something dreamed up, you forget that I and my community saw it happen. It is unfortunate that the group responsible and is feeling the consequence has trouble shouldering the responsibility. At this point you would do far more good in lobbying govt. for a wolf reduction program.

The wolves we are seeing have a lot of northern genetics in them, bigger framed, several nearly white ones have been seen or shot in the last year. It will be interesting to see what females that are killed in the spring are carrying for litter sizes. Even with only 3 pups that survive to next fall that is a 50% increase to the average pack size we are seeing.

And yes, I am not anticipating a predator free year for our cattle. I'm doing something about it, are you?

I didn't say the Carrier slaughter didn't happen, but being 20 years ago with moose/deer recovery and abundance occurring in subsequent years, I find it highly unlikely to be relevant to the current situation. I see it as being more likely that conservative harvests of ungulates over the last ten years led to the wolf problem we have today.

[gcreek]

I didn't say the Carrier slaughter didn't happen, but being 20 years ago with moose/deer recovery and abundance occurring in subsequent years, I find it highly unlikely to be relevant to the current situation. I see it as being more likely that conservative harvests of ungulates over the last ten years led to the wolf problem we have today.

Since the opportunity to compare what might have been had roads been restricted it is only your opinion against mine what the moose pop. would look like now but having a huge non-hunted breeding pasture surely wouldn't have hurt them.

The "abundance" ten years ago does not even begin to compare with pre-1986 levels we witnessed in this area. Why were there not as many wolves back then?

I'll tell you why once I've heard your opinion.

[6616]

Since the opportunity to compare what might have been had roads been restricted it is only your opinion against mine what the moose pop. would look like now but having a huge non-hunted breeding pasture surely wouldn't have hurt them.

The "abundance" ten years ago does not even begin to compare with pre-1986 levels we witnessed in this area. Why were there not as many wolves back then?

I'll tell you why once I've heard your opinion.

I'm not even attempting to guess what might have been if the roads were never built or were restricted nor am I going to try, there's no way of knowing that. Any number of disease, tick, habitat, etc related events could have happened, no one will even know so it would be pure conjecture.

Re the wolves, during the last peak elk population cycle in the Kootenays during the early '80's there weren't any wolves here either. This time around we're loaded with wolves, why? Well possibly because of the much different social attitude towards wolves back in the '60's and '70's, we didn't protect them, we killed them, and maybe we were still enjoying the after effect of that era during the peak ungulate population cycle in the '80's.....????? More trappers killing wolves, more ranchers and hunters killing wolves on sight, more ranches and ranchers in total (pre-consolidation into bigger ranches), gov sponsored aerial gunning and 1080 control programs, bounties, no graniola crunchers crying about saving wolves, altoghether a much different social and political era. So what is it in your opinion?

[safarichris]

I think you are both right and when fires of that size go through, the picture changes even more.Without suitable habitat, no amount of legal protection can benefit any animal. What I have noticed in our Clinton area, that is quite hilly compared to the Chilcotin, is that since the fires we have had in the last few years, we now host a pretty healthy wolf population and it is getting larger. Sightings of Wolves in Clinton were unheard of twenty / thirty years ago.

[hunter1947]

When animals populate as we all know the wolf population increases as well the only thing we as hunters and trappers can do is our part in controlling the wolves and cats trapping and shooting them when we see them is the only way to control.

I just goggled the elevation where where I called that wolf pack in last Aug and I was at the 1120 meter elevation 20 meters to hi in order to shot 3 or 4 out from that wolf pack I wonder to this day if I did open fire on them wolfs that day if the CO would fine me if he came into my camp ???.

I was 20 meters to hi in elevation the regs say any wolves under the 1100 meter mark is open year around any wolves above the 1100 meter above is closed for a period of months and I don't agree with the season being closed for a period of time above the 1100 meter mark.

If they the biologists and the wildlife branch want the wolves controlled then open the season hi and low year around if in the spring the bitches have pups and we the hunter takes out the female then good the pups die as well we get a whole bunch in one shot ,wolves travel and you can see the same pack above the 1100 meter mark or below that elevation at any given day????.

In my case last Aug I could not shoot them wolves and as I said I was only 20 meters to hi at this time of the year..

[boxhitch]

Wolves don't read maps or carry GPS
Have you been back to whack them this winter W ?
Maybe hand a couple of cable neck ties ?

[hunter1947]

Wolves don't read maps or carry GPS
Have you been back to whack them this winter W ?
Maybe hand a couple of cable neck ties ?

To much snow there right now there is around 4 feet in that camp area of mine right now as I speak them wolves are ether in Montana right now or somewhee else in the lower elevations.

[boxhitch]

Figured you would be all over them by now. I hear they like to follow snowshoe trails for the easy going.

[SimilkameenSlayer]

^^^ Yeah what SS said. Lots of people are bitching at the region 8 bio because there's no wolf season here (yet!). But he's been putting a proposal in every regs cycle trying to get one, and gathering data from the clubs and GOs to justify it. Last time, Mr Penner said "No way I can approve this in an election year when I get a stack of letters 6 inches high from people who want NO wolf season anywhere, and two letters asking for a wolf season in region 8."

Can you blame Penner? He only did what the majority told him to do. I think we can only blame ourselves for not stepping up and demanding what we want and need, in numbers. Where's your passion? How many don't even work at the club level or join the BCWF?

Outdone by a bunch of granola munching freaks with dreadlocks. Pretty sad.

x2 well said.

[hunter1947]

Figured you would be all over them by now. I hear they like to follow snowshoe trails for the easy going.

I am looking for a unit right now that will take me over the snow back in where the big bad wolves are I will have one before winter this fall..

[Husky7mm]

Wayne, go to the newgate, linklater sink creek area and call or howl, or get a fox pro. Suppose to be a massive pack and then some right now. Keep returning, maby even camp, lots of yotes too. As for the 1100 m did you make sure you were not in the caribou zone. Its also open year round. Its a pretty large zone:wink: Next time have a GPS or a watch with elavation and call them down a little further:wink: anyways we are not far off of no closed season....

[gcreek]

I'm not even attempting to guess what might have been if the roads were never built or were restricted nor am I going to try, there's no way of knowing that. Any number of disease, tick, habitat, etc related events could have happened, no one will even know so it would be pure conjecture.

Re the wolves, during the last peak elk population cycle in the Kootenays during the early '80's there weren't any wolves here either. This time around we're loaded with wolves, why? Well possibly because of the much different social attitude towards wolves back in the '60's and '70's, we didn't protect them, we killed them, and maybe we were still enjoying the after effect of that era during the peak ungulate population cycle in the '80's.....????? More trappers killing wolves, more ranchers and hunters killing wolves on sight, more ranches and ranchers in total (pre-consolidation into bigger ranches), gov sponsored aerial gunning and 1080 control programs, bounties, no graniola crunchers crying about saving wolves, altoghether a much different social and political era. So what is it in your opinion?

Only thing you didn't add was the tendancy for MOE to turn a generally blind eye to guides and ranchers who continued to illegally use poison until about 1990 when it became frowned upon due to increased public pressure. It was admitted by a Burns Lake biologist (off the record) that this was the main factor in the continued increase of the Itche-Ulgatcho cariboo herd during that time period. If my memory serves me right it numbered about 2500 back then. I see it is now estimated at 16-1800.

I personally knew one old timer who got a few dogs that had died of distemper and chucked them out on his range. The results were excellent in about a 100 mile circle. Totally organic and natural too.

[6616]

Only thing you didn't add was the tendancy for MOE to turn a generally blind eye to guides and ranchers who continued to illegally use poison until about 1990 when it became frowned upon due to increased public pressure. It was admitted by a Burns Lake biologist (off the record) that this was the main factor in the continued increase of the Itche-Ulgatcho cariboo herd during that time period. If my memory serves me right it numbered about 2500 back then. I see it is now estimated at 16-1800.

I personally knew one old timer who got a few dogs that had died of distemper and chucked them out on his range. The results were excellent in about a 100 mile circle. Totally organic and natural too.

I take it you're not buying into the possibility that overly conservative management of ungulates over the last ten years contributed to the wolf problems we have today....????

[gcreek]

I take it you're not buying into the possibility that overly conservative management of ungulates over the last ten years contributed to the wolf problems we have today....????

No, I don't believe so. If the game populations had been hunted harder/less animals, there are still livestock in the equation.
Wolves have had 50 years of comparatively little to no "management" (isn't that a 4 letter word?), or any hunting/trapping pressure to speak of since the late 1950's when the last major cull was done. The old natives can still tell you about how scarce meat was to find until the whiteys started killing wolves.
I would take the case of the Itcha cariboo for example. It still has a GOS on legal bulls, limited access and was on the increase until the wolf and grizzly pops. began to expand. Rumour has it that the herd has been reduced to the point that LEH is being considered. Hunters are not to blame for the reduction and although last winter was a tough one the cariboo were already declining before that. A trail riding business owner/ neighbor of mine witnessed a herd of 600 with 2 calves in it during a ride in July 2008.
Someone let the dogs out, it's past time to call the dog-catcher.

[91Jason91]

I believe that it is not always the Bio's we should work on.

Two of the biggest are;

1- Our selves as hunters. We are own worst enemies. There is so many armchair bio's out there who think only for themselves. Especially those who want only big animals and think that all seasons should be for 4pt/6pt/ over 8yo trophy's only. We only have to look at all the posts on here to see a lot of one way thinking. We need to stop thinking with emotion and social reasons and start looking at how we can keep the hunt/fish alive as a whole.

2- Politicians. They are THE BIGGEST problem we have. Just look at some of the FN concerns, the wolf problems and how they bend to the anti's, all just to garner/keep votes. There is very few of them that even understand issues that affect our love of fish and hunt. I bet very few even been in a park, gone fishing or tasted wild game. They need to keep out of the bio's/MOE's business and do what ever Politicians do.

Bio's, for the most part, are pretty passionate about their jobs and really do have a tough job between balancing the wants of all users and maintaining a healthy population of animals. It is a job that I am not envious of.

Cheers

SS
what he said lol

[6616]

No, I don't believe so. If the game populations had been hunted harder/less animals, there are still livestock in the equation.
Wolves have had 50 years of comparatively little to no "management" (isn't that a 4 letter word?), or any hunting/trapping pressure to speak of since the late 1950's when the last major cull was done. The old natives can still tell you about how scarce meat was to find until the whiteys started killing wolves.
I would take the case of the Itcha cariboo for example. It still has a GOS on legal bulls, limited access and was on the increase until the wolf and grizzly pops. began to expand. Rumour has it that the herd has been reduced to the point that LEH is being considered. Hunters are not to blame for the reduction and although last winter was a tough one the cariboo were already declining before that. A trail riding business owner/ neighbor of mine witnessed a herd of 600 with 2 calves in it during a ride in July 2008.
Someone let the dogs out, it's past time to call the dog-catcher.

I agree wolves haven't been managed since the '50's, but that still doesn't really fully explain why there were no wolf problems during the mid '80's when we had the last high population cycle in ungulates, and this time around we're over-run with wolves...? 30 years with no wolf management to the mid '80's, 50 years of no wolf management to the mid 2000s, that extra 20 years cannot make that huge difference...? 30 years should have been enough time to allow wolf populations to peak out at full capacity.

[gcreek]

It really doesn't matter how or why at this point, those questions may just lead to an excuse for more studies.

The fact is that they now are and we need to act.

[Husky7mm]

I agree wolves haven't been managed since the '50's, but that still doesn't really fully explain why there were no wolf problems during the mid '80's when we had the last high population cycle in ungulates, and this time around we're over-run with wolves...? 30 years with no wolf management to the mid '80's, 50 years of no wolf management to the mid 2000s, that extra 20 years cannot make that huge difference...? 30 years should have been enough time to allow wolf populations to peak out at full capacity.

Many credible reports say we have enjoyed for years the effects of basiclly obliterating wolves from much BC. Perhaps trappers DID play a larger role in this than we think. Giest put them up at the top of the list as a control tool. Whats happen in recent times? Recreational property has skyrocketed and trap lines have been sold to people who want a cabin on crown land. Fur until very lately was worth very little and a tank of gas was as much as $150. All reasons trappers are not putting a dent in the wolves anymore. One thing is certain the high wolf population does not parallel the high grey popualtion. The wolves peaked after the prey where already on the down slope. 6616 I know you know this????

[6616]

It really doesn't matter how or why at this point, those questions may just lead to an excuse for more studies.

The fact is that they now are and we need to act.

I agree we need to act now, but I also think the reasons do matter if we want to prevent it from happening again in the future. It's important to know the cause and do something about that instead of just reacting to the outcome perpetually.


Many credible reports say we have enjoyed for years the effects of basiclly obliterating wolves from much BC. Perhaps trappers DID play a larger role in this than we think. Giest put them up at the top of the list as a control tool. Whats happen in recent times? Recreational property has skyrocketed and trap lines have been sold to people who want a cabin on crown land. Fur until very lately was worth very little and a tank of gas was as much as $150. All reasons trappers are not putting a dent in the wolves anymore. One thing is certain the high wolf population does not parallel the high grey popualtion. The wolves peaked after the prey where already on the down slope. 6616 I know you know this????

It's pretty much basic knowledge that wolf and prey populations parallel each other except there's about a 2 to 3 year lag time in the wolf populations reaction to changes in prey population. The wolf populations will always peak a couple years after the prey population peak and the wolf decline won't begin for several years after the prey begins to decline.

[Husky7mm]

I agree wolves haven't been managed since the '50's, but that still doesn't really fully explain why there were no wolf problems during the mid '80's when we had the last high population cycle in ungulates, and this time around we're over-run with wolves...? 30 years with no wolf management to the mid '80's, 50 years of no wolf management to the mid 2000s, that extra 20 years cannot make that huge difference...? 30 years should have been enough time to allow wolf populations to peak out at full capacity.

It does not sound like they always parallel each other, how many peaks would have happen during those 50 yrs for the prey? What I am saying about them paralleling is that they actually parallel equally. Parallel. Anyways it is interesting that it is regularly observed 2-3 yrs after.

[6616]

It does not sound like they always parallel each other, how many peaks would have happen during those 50 yrs for the prey? What I am saying about them paralleling is that they actually parallel equally. Parallel. Anyways it is interesting that it is regularly observed 2-3 yrs after.

They parallel each other with a 2 to 3 year lag time in a natural and undisturbed eco-sysyem but of coure that doesn't happen if/when wolf control is a factor.

[GoatGuy]

Many credible reports say we have enjoyed for years the effects of basiclly obliterating wolves from much BC. Perhaps trappers DID play a larger role in this than we think. Giest put them up at the top of the list as a control tool. Whats happen in recent times? Recreational property has skyrocketed and trap lines have been sold to people who want a cabin on crown land. Fur until very lately was worth very little and a tank of gas was as much as $150. All reasons trappers are not putting a dent in the wolves anymore. One thing is certain the high wolf population does not parallel the high grey popualtion. The wolves peaked after the prey where already on the down slope. 6616 I know you know this????

Geist talked about Alberta - consider the number of trappers and the fact many were full-time and then compare it to today.

In BC strychnine and later 1080 as well as shooting from helictopers was used across in large quantities by the province by government, outfitters and ranchers. Poison was and until just last year was still being used in Alberta and they are doing aerial reductions for caribou recovery.

In Alaska they have trapping, hunting on the ground, shooting from planes/helicopters, landing on lakes and shooting wolves and on and on and on to acheive results.

One article and all the knowledge in the world - wow.

[gcreek]

So...... Use it!

[Husky7mm]

One article and all the knowledge in the world - wow.

Didnt even need a life time of studies and school, just some logic. No "chat" either

[bearvalley]

Geist talked about Alberta - consider the number of trappers and the fact many were full-time and then compare it to today.

In BC strychnine and later 1080 as well as shooting from helictopers was used across in large quantities by the province by government, outfitters and ranchers. Poison was and until just last year was still being used in Alberta and they are doing aerial reductions for caribou recovery.

In Alaska they have trapping, hunting on the ground, shooting from planes/helicopters, landing on lakes and shooting wolves and on and on and on to acheive results.

One article and all the knowledge in the world - wow.

Is the light starting to come on

[GoatGuy]

Is the light starting to come on

None of this is new info, so I guess not.

[GoatGuy]

Didnt even need a life time of studies and school, just some logic. No "chat" either

Was being facetious. You're comparing apples and oranges and calling them vegetables.

[The Dude]

Is anyone on this thread actually shooting or snaring wolves, or is this armchair quarterback season?
Just Axin' :D

[gcreek]

Is anyone on this thread actually shooting or snaring wolves, or is this armchair quarterback season?
Just Axin' :D


Probably more than most professional "experts" see in a lifetime.

[gcreek]

Hey Goatguy, Let's just say that science has proven that there are too many wolves for the current populations of ungulates. (It is my opinion this has been true for a few years but that is beside the point for this purpose.)

If science-based evidence shows that a predator needs to be reduced in numbers why is there any weight placed on the general public's opinion outside of the politician's worry about getting re-elected?

[safarichris]

Hey Goatguy, Let's just say that science has proven that there are too many wolves for the current populations of ungulates. (It is my opinion this has been true for a few years but that is beside the point for this purpose.)

If science-based evidence shows that a predator needs to be reduced in numbers why is there any weight placed on the general public's opinion outside of the politician's worry about getting re-elected?

Two thumbs up gcreek.

[GoatGuy]

Hey Goatguy, Let's just say that science has proven that there are too many wolves for the current populations of ungulates. (It is my opinion this has been true for a few years but that is beside the point for this purpose.)

If science-based evidence shows that a predator needs to be reduced in numbers why is there any weight placed on the general public's opinion outside of the politician's worry about getting re-elected?

Politicians control the strings. Unless the politicians support it, it won't happen.

This isn't complicated.

[Husky7mm]

That does sound like science!

[gcreek]

Politicians control the strings. Unless the politicians support it, it won't happen.

This isn't complicated.


Correct, but it is their respective staffs that give them advice and information as to what direction needs to be taken.

Has this happened yet pertaining to wolf and grizzly population expansions in this province in a way that a politician can understand the seriousness of the issue?

Politicians are just that. Some of them are placed in positions they really know nothing about for political or various other reasons. How can they act on an issue unless they are aware of what is exactly taking place in their respective Ministries.

It seems to be the opinion of many that the MOE focuses on issues of lesser importance because they are "easier" to deal with and have less repugnance to the general public and thereby creates less pressure on public servants. It is a well known fact that most beaurocrats don't like controversy by stepping into the limelight and justifying their position unless that position personally affects their own job. Most prefer to float along with the current of shuffling papers and creating the false image of being productive. I can also give several factual instances where public employees acted with personal vindictiveness to residents of this province. I will give the instance of Kyle Lay's special permit not being renewed as one.

If you think livestock owners enjoy dealing with predators in order to reduce loss of dollars and wasted time you are mistaken. My wife and I have personally lost in excess of $100,000 worth of livestock in the past 20 years to predators alone. We have also invested in countless hours and dollars for prevention and mitigation of losses.

MOE has trapped one wolf in this area in the last 20 years.

I doubt any of MOE's staff would enjoy being told that a bank robber had stolen a portion of their paychecks, that the money was gone forever and was never going to be paid to them. It would be a huge outcry to catch this robber before a portion of next year's payroll disappeared too.

It has been discussed that the possibility of over $1,000,000 worth of cattle were lost to predators in this province in 2011. I hope that all producers filled out the form that BCCA made available so the magnitude of this issue can be felt at a political level. Just imagine, if those dollars had been put in a producer's pocket, they may have paid more in taxes and you may have gotten a raise!

Add into the scenario that for every domestic animal that is killed there are likely 500 wild ungulates that are killed also.

Do you want to be part of the group responsible for the loss of hunting priveledges and livestock production in this province?

The day is getting nearer all the time.

[GoatGuy]

Correct, but it is their respective staffs that give them advice and information as to what direction needs to be taken.

Has this happened yet pertaining to wolf and grizzly population expansions in this province in a way that a politician can understand the seriousness of the issue?

Politicians are just that. Some of them are placed in positions they really know nothing about for political or various other reasons. How can they act on an issue unless they are aware of what is exactly taking place in their respective Ministries.

It seems to be the opinion of many that the MOE focuses on issues of lesser importance because they are "easier" to deal with and have less repugnance to the general public and thereby creates less pressure on public servants. It is a well known fact that most beaurocrats don't like controversy by stepping into the limelight and justifying their position unless that position personally affects their own job. Most prefer to float along with the current of shuffling papers and creating the false image of being productive. I can also give several factual instances where public employees acted with personal vindictiveness to residents of this province. I will give the instance of Kyle Lay's special permit not being renewed as one.

If you think livestock owners enjoy dealing with predators in order to reduce loss of dollars and wasted time you are mistaken. My wife and I have personally lost in excess of $100,000 worth of livestock in the past 20 years to predators alone. We have also invested in countless hours and dollars for prevention and mitigation of losses.

MOE has trapped one wolf in this area in the last 20 years.

I doubt any of MOE's staff would enjoy being told that a bank robber had stolen a portion of their paychecks, that the money was gone forever and was never going to be paid to them. It would be a huge outcry to catch this robber before a portion of next year's payroll disappeared too.

It has been discussed that the possibility of over $1,000,000 worth of cattle were lost to predators in this province in 2011. I hope that all producers filled out the form that BCCA made available so the magnitude of this issue can be felt at a political level. Just imagine, if those dollars had been put in a producer's pocket, they may have paid more in taxes and you may have gotten a raise!

Add into the scenario that for every domestic animal that is killed there are likely 500 wild ungulates that are killed also.

Do you want to be part of the group responsible for the loss of hunting priveledges and livestock production in this province?

The day is getting nearer all the time.

The politicians know and have been informed by staff thousands of times since the late 70s/early 80s. There are people who actually lost their jobs because they supported predator management and they had no support.

Politicians don't care, because it isn't an important issue to them. The only people they have to worry about are individuals such as yourself whose contribution is trivial and meaningless. The best part is you usually divide people often taken your issues out on people who share common interests. I guess in a round about way what I tried to say is that the way you have approached this issue over the last 30 years has been completely and totally unproductive. I know its all everyone elses fault.... But Maybe it's time for change?

Thanks again for the unproductive rhetoric. Wildlife and livestock producers would be far better off without your approach.

[GoatGuy]

That does sound like science!

You need science to have a leg to stand on. The public will not tolerate predator control because a couple people 'want it'.

I don't know why the two of you have such a hard time understanding this.

[gcreek]

So what you are trying to say is Husky and I are just as effective as you are?

At least when I sterilize a wolf it doesn't cost the taxpayer in excess of $30,000 and the wolf definately stops killing.

I will reiterate my question again in reference to your answer to Husky........ If science has proven there is a problem, why is MOE worried about the public?

MOE surely has no accountability in pissing away tax dollars on meaningless repetitive studies that keep proving the same results.

I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding this!

An individual who will not give their own credentials to back up opinions given does not have any respect from me, I would guess a lot of others feel the same.

[The Dude]

This thread and the Mulw deer thread are starting to piss me off.
If you have legitimate concerns and complaints, talk to your Bio, then deluge the politicians with good, hard evidence.
Think, research, think some more, and write letters.
If you guys spent 10% of the time you spent arguing on writing and placing cold calls, you'd have some real answers.
Instead you debate pointlessly ad infinitum on a website that has no powers whatsoever.
Come on guys, this is a waste of time and effort.

[gcreek]

This thread and the Mulw deer thread are starting to piss me off.
If you have legitimate concerns and complaints, talk to your Bio, then deluge the politicians with good, hard evidence.
Think, research, think some more, and write letters.
If you guys spent 10% of the time you spent arguing on writing and placing cold calls, you'd have some real answers.
Instead you debate pointlessly ad infinitum on a website that has no powers whatsoever.
Come on guys, this is a waste of time and effort.

How do you know what I'm doing elsewhere?

There is nothing forcing you to read but curiosity.

Have you added your voice to the issue?

[The Dude]

What have you done, then?
Post it up.
BTW "Issues" on internet forums are just that: Issues.
Got an issue? Have a tissue.
Post up copies of all the letters and emails, and transcripts, or what have you, of all the phone calls you have made.
Can ya do that?
I'm overseas, but when I'm home I shoot Yotes, and help my rancher friends to snare wolves. I hope to get into knocking off some cats next year.
I'm not picking on anyone here GC, but put your money where your mouth is.

[Husky7mm]

This thread and the Mulw deer thread are starting to piss me off.
If you have legitimate concerns and complaints, talk to your Bio, then deluge the politicians with good, hard evidence.
Think, research, think some more, and write letters.
If you guys spent 10% of the time you spent arguing on writing and placing cold calls, you'd have some real answers.
Instead you debate pointlessly ad infinitum on a website that has no powers whatsoever.
Come on guys, this is a waste of time and effort.

Been there done that.... I know this website has no power to change these issue, but it does let regular people know whats going on and action has begun.
If it pisses you off why follow it? You dont think the people on here are not shooting preditors every chance they get. I am involved, but posting up what I am doing would make me seem like I looking for a pat on the back. At this time the respones from the bio and mla's and such would be private. I'm not a braggart needing to flaunt my progress. I do get some of what GG is say about it being a dirty and complacated issue and I dont want to do more harm than good, there are better people for pushing" preditor management" along then I, I just have not found the bandwagon to jump onto yet. Until then I will be learning and listening, even if its on a "powerless web site" with 12000 members.....

[GoatGuy]

THE TOWNSMAN - JANUARY 20, 2012
Caribou infusion requires wolf cull: MLA
BY SALLY MACDONALD, TOWNSMAN STAFF
http://www.dailytownsman.com/article/20120120/CRANBROOK0101/301209996/-1/cra
nbrook01/caribou-infusion-requires-wolf-cull-mla

The troubled mountain caribou herd west of Cranbrook and Kimberley may see
new life - but area wolves would have to be killed to ensure their safety.
In March, the Ministry of Environment hopes to transplant 20 mountain
caribou from Dease Lake in northwestern B.C. into the dwindling Purcell
South herd. Another 20 caribou would be moved in March 2013. The local herd,
which lives in old-growth forest in the Purcell mountains, has dropped to
just 15 animals, mostly due to loss of habitat from industrial forestry. "It
has gotten very small and the concern is that it will not survive unless
it's augmented," said Kootenay East MLA Bill Bennett.

The species has dropped to just 1,700, making it one of the most endangered
mammals in North America. Under the Species At Risk Act, the provincial
government must act to recover the population. A specially formed scientific
team within the Ministry of Environment has been allocated $750,000 to
transplant 40 caribou from the Tahltan First Nation to the Purcell South
herd. The first translocation in March would be of 17 females and three
males, and the same ratio would be used in March 2013. Many of the females
would be pregnant during the move. It's a last-ditch effort to save the
dwindling herd. "I am convinced that if we don't do this, we can basically
write off that herd. This has to be done," said Bennett.

But the success of the move is dependent on one controversial issue: a wolf
cull. "I support (the translocation) on one condition: predators have to be
managed appropriately here at this end. You can't dump out a bunch of
caribou from the north without also managing the predators," said Bennett.
"I do not support the transplantation unless that component is included."

And the only effective way to manage the area's burgeoning wolf population
is through aerial control. "It's very controversial but it is the only way
we can ensure the survival of these caribou," said Bennett. The wolves would
only be shot if the pack kills a caribou, Bennett added. Before the caribou
are placed in the Purcells, they will be fitted with radio collars. "So they
will know within an hour if a caribou is killed," said Bennett. "They will
go in with a helicopter, they will figure out what killed the caribou, and
if it was a wolf, they will do this aerial cull. "They are not proposing an
indiscriminate cull; only in response to an animal being taken by a wolf
pack would they go in and do that."

Almost every group that is working to recover the mountain caribou
population supports predator control. The ministry's scientific team
supports it, Bennett said. "The Tahltan First Nation doesn't want to let
their caribou be brought down here unless we have that aerial wolf control,"
he said. The ministry is talking to the Ktunaxa about their own concerns.

A collaboration of North American environmental groups has long worked to
conserve the mountain caribou and their habitat. Members of the Mountain
Caribou Project include Wildsight, the Federation of BC Naturalists, and the
Sierra Club of Canada's B.C. chapter. According to its website at
www.mountaincaribou.ca the project does support predator management where
immediate threat to the caribou is determined.

Cranbrook Snowmobile Club is also onboard with the translocation and has
voluntarily withdrawn from caribou habitat. "We have been working with the
Ministry of Environment for quite a while on mountain caribou," said club
president Doug Hogg. "We have some voluntary area closures: boundaries for
where we can snowmobile and where we can't snowmobile in order to protect
caribou habitat."

Some areas are closed to all snowmobile traffic, some areas limit
snowmobiles to roads and cutblocks, and other areas are completely open.
"Everyone in our club is at heart an environmentalist. Even though we like
to play in the mountains, we are concerned about the wildlife and the area
around us. If we can do our part to enhance the herd, we'll do what we can,"
said Hogg. The club supports managing the wolf population in the habitat
area. "If there is no predator control, transplanting 20 caribou could be
providing a free lunch for the cougars and the wolves so obviously they have
got to do something," said Hogg.

[GoatGuy]

After all the discussion it is my sincere hope that you all
write a letter to the editor that you wholeheartedly support this
Transplant and predator management.

This WILL hit the province/sun and globe and we will have to take this to the lower mainland.

If we don't get onboard there will be no hope for increasing ungulate populations in other areas.

In the words of one smart individual: the world
Is run by those that show up.

[gcreek]

After all the discussion it is my sincere hope that you all
write a letter to the editor that you wholeheartedly support this
Transplant and predator management.

This WILL hit the province/sun and globe and we will have to take this to the lower mainland.

If we don't get onboard there will be no hope for increasing ungulate populations in other areas.

In the words of one smart individual: the world
Is run by those that show up.

Consider it done GG, thanks for the link.

Finally, some light at the end of the tunnel! I believe that treating this issue similar to taking out only packs that predate on cattle in our situation will be accepted better than a general cull.

Have you heard anything concrete on the moose count that was completed in 5-12B last week? I haven't yet talked to the fellow that flew along from the local band but second hand info doesn't sound great. I am leaving to Alberta for a week to attend a bull sale next Tuesday so hope to touch base with him before then.

[Husky7mm]

Wonderful start. Glad to see I wasnt barking up the wrong tree.
GG your quote about the showing up and running the world, does ring true but you should also follow it, you made me question the effectiveness of myself getting involved as "missguided" as I may have been my spark was starting starting to fizzle. Than badda boom something is starting to happen............
Dont let your teaching get in the way of you learning you may be too wise for your own good.....
Thanks for the link and posting it up. Consider it done and more to follow.

[GoatGuy]

Consider it done GG, thanks for the link.

Finally, some light at the end of the tunnel! I believe that treating this issue similar to taking out only packs that predate on cattle in our situation will be accepted better than a general cull.

Have you heard anything concrete on the moose count that was completed in 5-12B last week? I haven't yet talked to the fellow that flew along from the local band but second hand info doesn't sound great. I am leaving to Alberta for a week to attend a bull sale next Tuesday so hope to touch base with him before then.

Have not received raw data yet. Wouldn't be surprised if it's low or very low.

Would suggest the same approach in region 5 and that would be with caribou in the itchas then move on. Your two politicians are aware but more letters and meetings are required.

[GoatGuy]

Wonderful start. Glad to see I wasnt barking up the wrong tree.
GG your quote about the showing up and running the world, does ring true but you should also follow it, you made me question the effectiveness of myself getting involved as "missguided" as I may have been my spark was starting starting to fizzle. Than badda boom something is starting to happen............
Dont let your teaching get in the way of you learning you may be too wise for your own good.....
Thanks for the link and posting it up. Consider it done and more to follow.

Questioning method, not madness. Taken a long time to get to this point. Decades, infact.

We're all on the same team, we need a consistent message founded in science and fact.

[Husky7mm]

Questioning method, not madness. Taken a long time to get to this point. Decades, infact.

We're all on the same team, we need a consistent message founded in science and fact.

And a politician:wink: thanks now were friends, kumbaya, hope your using your smarts and connections to help this build momentum.

[Islandeer]

Nice work all.

[The Dude]

And the Choir sang "Hallelujah"

Glad to be of service.

[gcreek]

After all the discussion it is my sincere hope that you all
write a letter to the editor that you wholeheartedly support this
Transplant and predator management.

This WILL hit the province/sun and globe and we will have to take this to the lower mainland.

If we don't get onboard there will be no hope for increasing ungulate populations in other areas.

In the words of one smart individual: the world
Is run by those that show up.

26 hours since you posted the link GG and 3 comments supporting the issue. I guess the 12,000 HBC members don't care if there is nothing to hunt in a few years.

C'mon guys, put your support out there where the general public and govt. can see it. Be nice.

[Husky7mm]

I was going to send it to the paper, I didnt realize the I could send support comments through the link. I thought the link was the article. ( simple guy small village).:wink:

[Islandeer]

Sending my support right now. Short and sweet,cmon gang time to step up.

[Husky7mm]

OMGoodness!! Gcreek the guy you are interacting with on the link thinks the mule deer in town are the caribou!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of coarse he does, that is the kind of people that are against the logical way of going about things, unfortunatly they are also the people who comment on everything. I will be sending my peice in in short order. I first have to draft up something that sounds good and then get my wife to submit it ( after she checks my spelling) I cant, I have no, twitter, or facebook....... so I cant send in a comment yet. Wow we have caribou running around cranbrook! How perfect an example is that, not being able to tell a wolf from a coyote rings true right out of the shoot.

[GoatGuy]

Best thing is to send it in to the paper as a letter to the editor. That way it will be published.

[gcreek]

I rest my case.

I also say, I told you so.