Legal Stone's Sheep Ram?

[BiG Boar]

Hello HBC,
I have some questions about what is legal for a Stone's sheep, and about looking for legality in the field. This year will be my third season going for Stone's and still I have yet to harvest one. Like everyone, I would love a real cranker, however I would be satisfied with any legal ram for the first one. Which is what I want to talk about. I look through all kinds of hunting magazines and pictures of stones sheep and it seems that many sheep do not look what I would call legal. Here is what the regs says, so we get that one out of the way:


Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram
- means any male thinhorn mountain sheep
whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the
forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely
from the side or which has attained the age of
8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth
annuli as determined by the Regional Manager
or designate. Do not use yearly horn growth
annuli to determine the age of a ram in the
field, because "false" annuli may be present.

Now, with this clear explanation, I have a couple of questions. The reason I am asking these is that a lot of rams in pictures and on walls do not seem to meet these requirements. Maybe I should be asking a CO instead of shooting a sheep and then telling the inspector the guys on the internet said something different, but I am just hoping for some clarification. Even with talking with guys at the wild sheep society of which I am a life member, there is still mass confusion on this topic. I have sat through the aging by annuli course and am pretty sure I know what one is when I look at a sheep, I understand false annuli and know that it shouldn't be used as a way to judge a legal ram, that being said, if the correct situation arose, and I was 150% sure, I would shoot based on age. I know everyone here is going to say not to, however roughly 25% of rams are shot on age alone, and I am not going to cut 25% of potential rams out of the picture.

Here are my questions:

1. Does a ram have to show 9 annuli rings to be shot based on age? The first ring (lamb tip bump) is 6 months, add 8 more rings and this should be an 8.5 year old ram, making it legal; over 8 years old. My question is, if the 6 month lamb tip bump and the first 1.5 year ring were completely missing, rubbed or broken off; can you assume they were there? Or must there be at least 9 full rings showing when I go to get it inspected, if under the nose? Lets assume this ram is broomed way back, and this ram is actually 11 years old, but only has 7 annuli actually present. Would that ram be confiscated?

2. Viewed squarely from the side. What does squarely mean? How far away is squarely viewed from? Does that mean my eye level with the tops of the horns level? Does that mean my eyes being level with the bottom of the chin? Does that mean with my eye directly in the centre of the curl? If so, the closer I get to the ram's curl with my eye the more that tip should break the nose. The way I am thinking of it right now is if you were to take a 2x4 and lay it flat on the nose bone and slide it down the nose you should hit a horn tip on your way down the front of the face of the ram.

I look through many photos of guided stone hunts and a lot of the time these sheep do not look legal, according to what I understand above. I have never been in on an inspection, so I don't know how the jig works either and maybe there is a loop hole of some kind with that device? But from looking at many mounts which seem to not meet this criteria, what am I missing here?

Feel free to PM me if this is some kind of secret sheep hunting thing, or respond here if you wish. I don't want this to be turned into a sheep ageing debate, I just want clarification on these 2 questions. Cheers

[325]

I've noticed the same thing. I studied lots of Stone sheep images on GO websites last year before my sheep hunt, so I'd be a little better educated on what a legal ram looks like. Many of the sheep shown did not appear legal, although I'm sure they are. Not full curl, but must be 8 years old. I'm sure I passed on several barely legal rams last year, that an experienced guide would have his client shoot.

[bigwhiteys]

Does a ram have to show 9 annuli rings to be shot based on age?


Not really, but you could get an inspector who doesn't know what he's looking at.



The first ring (lamb tip bump) is 6 months, add 8 more rings and this should be an 8.5 year old ram, making it legal; over 8 years old.


Bobs your uncle! False Annuli can throw a wrench in that spoke... Learn about growth patterns, then you can pinpoint where annuli should theoretically fall.



My question is, if the 6 month lamb tip bump and the first 1.5 year ring were completely missing, rubbed or broken off; can you assume they were there?


Depending on how else the ram appears, possibly. If you're looking at a little dink thinhorn and trying to make him legal by age you should keep moving. A ram that has broomed that much will show his age in other areas as well. Does he have big bases? rough bases or smooth bases? tightly packed annuli near the bases? I think there are a number of clues a hunter should look at FIRST before trying to age. If all the clues point to an aged ram then maybe hunker down for a closer look.


Or must there be at least 9 full rings showing when I go to get it inspected, if under the nose? Lets assume this ram is broomed way back, and this ram is actually 11 years old, but only has 7 annuli actually present. Would that ram be confiscated?


An 11 year old thinhorn ram will still have distinguishing features on his horns that a 7 year old just won't have... (such as really rough bases and tightly packed annuli) This would be obvious to anyone with experience. It would be a pretty far fetched mistake for a CI to make but I am sure it's happened!


2. Viewed squarely from the side. What does squarely mean? How far away is squarely viewed from? Does that mean my eye level with the tops of the horns level? Does that mean my eyes being level with the bottom of the chin? Does that mean with my eye directly in the centre of the curl? If so, the closer I get to the ram's curl with my eye the more that tip should break the nose. The way I am thinking of it right now is if you were to take a 2x4 and lay it flat on the nose bone and slide it down the nose you should hit a horn tip on your way down the front of the face of the ram.

Just like it says... You want to be viewing the ram squarely from the side so as to not be judging from an angle. If you are looking down he'll look smaller, if you're looking from below him he could look bigger.



I look through many photos of guided stone hunts and a lot of the time these sheep do not look legal, according to what I understand above. I have never been in on an inspection, so I don't know how the jig works either and maybe there is a loop hole of some kind with that device? But from looking at many mounts which seem to not meet this criteria, what am I missing here?


If they don't make the curl requirement then they likely make it on age, and disputes happen with CI's and guided hunters on age too...

Carl

[mark]

Im far from an expert, but 8 actual "annuli rings" makes him legal, not 9.
8 rings, means 8 winters, then you shoot him in the late summer/fall he's 8.+ a few months years old!
I would also agree with the 2x4 across the nose logic!

The only thing for certain on the aging thing, is nothing...as proven to me several times, by massive arguments between experts on the topic at both the sheep banquet, and on this site, every year!
Best to see 10 rings before shooting :-D

[BiG Boar]

8 actual rings plus the bump or lamb tip ring would make him 8.5 years old when hunting season is there (9 rings total). The lamb tip is a winter ring also, but it only accounts for half a year as they are born in the spring.

[mark]

8 actual rings plus the bump or lamb tip ring would make him 8.5 years old when hunting season is there (9 rings total). The lamb tip is a winter ring also, but it only accounts for half a year as they are born in the spring.

When a sheep is exactly 1 year old (12 months) how many rings will be there BB???

[kootenayelkslayer]

8 actual rings plus the bump or lamb tip ring would make him 8.5 years old when hunting season is there (9 rings total). The lamb tip is a winter ring also, but it only accounts for half a year as they are born in the spring.

8 rings + the lamb tip would actually make the ram 9 years and 2-3 months old, assuming you shoot him in and around August some time.

[BiG Boar]

When a sheep is exactly 1 year old (12 months) how many rings will be there BB???

Assuming the lamb is born in the spring (use april for example), 9 months later it goes through its first winter, giving it the lamb tip bump, then next April it should only have that lamb tip ring (bump) annuli.

[BiG Boar]

8 rings + the lamb tip ring/bump would actually make the ram 9 years and 2-3 months old, assuming you shoot him in and around August some time.

I guess I was taught differently at the wild sheep society sheep aging seminar. Maybe this is what is screwing me up. I was taught that the lamb tip bump is the first 6 month old winter, and every annuli after that is 1 more winter.

That being said, please dont turn this into a how to sheep age thread, what I really want answered is those 2 questions above. Obviously there will be different opinions based on who you take your ram to, but I would like to hear them all.

[bigwhiteys]

I guess I was taught differently at the wild sheep society sheep aging seminar. Maybe this is what is screwing me up. I was taught that the lamb tip bump is the first 6 month old winter, and every annuli after that is 1 more winter.
Your lamb tip on a stone is actually only about 3 months of growth, if that... Born in May/June and then growth will slow to stop in Sept... By October horn growth has pretty much ceased and the annuli is forming. Horn growth will resume again in late March or April.

Carl

[kootenayelkslayer]

I guess I was taught differently at the wild sheep society sheep aging seminar. Maybe this is what is screwing me up. I was taught that the lamb tip bump is the first 6 month old winter, and every annuli after that is 1 more winter.


Well that should still work for you. Technically the lamb tip may be done before 6 months like BW said, but for ease sake you can just call it 1/2 year.

As for your other questions, I'm not much help in judging full curls. As far as age goes though, you should be pretty comfortable making the call on a broomed ram IF you see age rings stacked in closer towards the bases. If its broomed off past the first 1.5 years and still has 7 rings then technically it is a legal ram, but from the sounds of it, not all of the CI's are on the same page. Sounds to me like more motivation to find a 10+ year old ram just to be safe!
All i can recommend when watching rams is to get close, be very very patient when watching, and have good optics.

[BiG Boar]

Your lamb tip on a stone is actually only about 3 months of growth, if that... Born in May/June and then growth will slow to stop in Sept... By October horn growth has pretty much ceased and the annuli is forming. Horn growth will resume again in late March or April.

Carl

Right, well I'm on the same page more or less. Please just stay on topic and give your opinions of why so many stone's sheep pictures look short of full curl, and the annuli don't always match up.

Can anyone explain how the jig works? Pictures of it in action?

[bigwhiteys]

Please just stay on topic and give your opinions of why so many stone's sheep pictures look short of full curl, and the annuli don't always match up.



Who Knows... Could be the angle the picture was taken... I've got albums with hundreds of stone sheep pics... I can only find a few that don't appear to be full curl, but they are very legal via age. Most G/O's have some experienced hands who have no problem determining legality via age of the ram if it's not full-curl.

As for Annuli not matching up, not sure what you're referring to there... The annuli on a thinhorn don't fall all that far away from each other in relation to other thinhorns. That's why it's a good idea to know what their growth pattern is... You can better pinpoint what class of ram you're looking at.

Carl

[budismyhorse]

I've confused as to why you are confused about "square"? When in the field you'll be judging rams in all kinds of different angles and distances.......doesn't matter. You have to watch the ram long enough to see the horns squarely.....meaning draw a line from your eyes straight through both eyes of the ram.......or through both bases. Many times if above or below the ram, this only happens for a second or two while he is feeding. I've watched bighorns for hours and hours thinking this is the day, this is the day.......only to get that perfect square view and see the thing is short. If you aren't on the same elevation of the sheep, it usually means you are waiting for the sheep to turn his head while feeding or looking around.

This means you can be 200 yards away looking damn near straight up.......and when the ram is moving his head and twisting his neck around feeding, you can get a split second view of the horns square. Takes patience.

the trouble with pictures is they are rarely from a fully square angle.

[BiG Boar]

I'll give some examples here, any club ovis magazine has tonnes of them though:

The second picture on this website does not appear to break the nose. Can't tell the age obviously, but curl length looks under to me. http://www.toaltd.com/northern_bc/sheep.php

http://trophyhuntamerica.smugmug.com/Other/Stone-Sheep/4032854_tm6Y8#234758353_x2Hsf

[kootenayelkslayer]

I'll give some examples here, any club ovis magazine has tonnes of them though:

The second picture on this website does not appear to break the nose. Can't tell the age obviously, but curl length looks under to me.
http://trophyhuntamerica.smugmug.com/Other/Stone-Sheep/4032854_tm6Y8#234758353_x2Hsf


This ram definitely has the age though. Funny, I know the young guide in this pic, he's grown up a bit now!

[Gilmore]

Hard to say on the pictures your looking at as we haven't seen them but if the caption says it's a full curl yet it doesn't look like it, it is likely the angle of the photo. Another example that solidifies why when field judging rams the horns need to viewed squarely from the side.

[Freshtracks]

I fully understand your point BB ... easiest solution would be to hunt with someone that has the experience of judging legal.

Of the dozen pics, I see 4 what I'd 100% say are full curl. They rest aged. Some I'm having trouble counting the annuli.

[HD95]

The safest thing for you if you haven't hunted stone sheep before...is to only shoot at a full curl ram. Until you have spent many,many hours glassing sheep with quality optics you should not be trying to shoot on age.Every time you hunt sheep you'll gain more experience and you might become confident in your ability to age sheep.You need to look at this as a long term learning process.JMO

[325]

Judging Stones is definately a challenging task. No a good quarry for the trigger-happy.

[boxhitch]

8 actual rings plus the bump or lamb tip ring would make him 8.5 years old when hunting season is there (9 rings total). The lamb tip is a winter ring also, but it only accounts for half a year as they are born in the spring.I think you are mixing things up.
Either count rings or sections, only. Don't mix the two.
The lamb tip is part of a section, the annuli formed at the start of the lamb tip is ring.

-/--/--/--/--/--/--/--/-

Not sure how else to illustrate this

Annuli, one ring = one year , 8 rings = 8 years

Sections, lamb tip is 1/2 year, between each ring is one year, from last annuli to base is 1/2 year.
two 1/2 sections + 7 sections = 8 sections = 8 years

KISS, don't figure on days ,months , stars or the moon

[boxhitch]

-\--\--\--\--\--\--\--\-

Just for those that start counting at the other end

[mark]

I think you are mixing things up.
Either count rings or sections, only. Don't mix the two.
The lamb tip is part of a section, the annuli formed at the start of the lamb tip is ring.

-/--/--/--/--/--/--/--/-

Not sure how else to illustrate this

Annuli, one ring = one year , 8 rings = 8 years

Sections, lamb tip is 1/2 year, between each ring is one year, from last annuli to base is 1/2 year.
two 1/2 sections + 7 sections = 8 sections = 8 years

KISS, don't figure on days ,months , stars or the moon

Good post box, 8 rings =8 years.....I never understand the confusion myself!

[budismyhorse]

one of the best posts on sheep age I've read.....nice work!

[buford19]

What about a full curl ram that dosen't break the nose, and is not 8 years of age. There a guy who won a court case up here who,s ram horns completed a full circle, but didn't break the nose. This ram didn't pass inspection, but was later awarded legal by the courts. This the story that I was told, but is second hand news.

[boxhitch]

buf, what do the regs say about it ?

[North]

Here are a few pics from my Dall sheep from last year. (Not stone but very close)

Also are a few pics of the jig used by the YUKON government. The Yukon regs define a full curl ram differently then in BC so the Jig is likely a little different but will give you an idea
Definition from the Yukon Regs

(When viewed from the side, with horn bases aligned, a full curl male has at least one
horn that extends beyond a line running from the centre of the nostril to the lowermost
edge of the eye. Check the horns carefully. Sheep horns viewed from below can appear
larger than they really are. )

In my opinion (still rookie at best) , most pictures of dead sheep are taken from angles that are difficult to tell if its legal. I like the Yukon definition that says view it with the horn bases aligned (from the side) . If you can get a view with the bases aliged, you should be on a good angle to tell if its legal or not. If they are not lined up, you can assume you are not seeing the real curl. If your above or below, you would have to wait until the Ram tilts its head. If the bases are lined up and the horn breaks the plane of the nose, your good to go.

The best way to get comfortable with it is to look at sheep. If you have access to someone's trophies, look at them from all sorts of different angles. Also contact a government biologist as they have lots of tips about the growth patterns in the horns which can help you find an age if your going that way. Also, if you can, watch rams in before the season opens and practice making the call if its legal or not. Its a little tricky but if you put in some time you will be fine.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/P9040040.jpg

From the front, hard to tell.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/P9040012.jpg

From the side, easier to tell

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/P9080046.jpg

Here is the Jig in the Yukon. Not from the perfect angle but you get the idea of what would be a full curl Ram based on this Jig


http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/P9080045.jpg

One more from the front

Hope these help. Sure wish it was August already

[BiG Boar]

Can anyone confirm this is the same jig used here in BC? I have heard ours is also a U shape.

[boxhitch]

Same principle whether U or V shaped
There is no industry standard from which they are made and will vary between builders and regions.
But when used for what they are, and with some subjectivity, it gets the job done.
There is some range in which the skull can be fitted and locked in place.

Remember in BC all the nasal plane bone has to be left intact, cutting it short like the Yukon pic could get you a fine, possibly more.
The Boyz here want the bone in place to view in the jig.

[bighornbob]

Can anyone confirm this is the same jig used here in BC? I have heard ours is also a U shape.

It looks pretty similar from what i can tell. They call it a Yukon jig so I would assume thats where they came from.

The orange screw holds the head down and it can be used to line up the bottom of the eye socket with the wood. So if the bottom of the eye socket is flush with the top of the wood ( the same as what the bases of the horn are sitting on), then all you would have to do is see if the horn tip extends past the wood (this is for full curl bighorns and not thinhorns). I guess the yukon sheep have to be full curl like are bighorns (to the eye socket).

On our jigs there is also a peice of metal that attaches and hangs down. This is used to show the 3/4 curl mark.

On that not not sure how the jig can be used to show if the horn breaks the bridge of the nose??? I doubt they would use the jig for that part.

On a seperate note, (on the side picture of the skull in the jig), you can see where the inspector has used chalk to show the annuli. Like Boxhitch explained, 7 complete sections between annuli, 1/2 a year above the lamb tip and another 1/2 year between the last annuli and the skull= a 8 year old ram.

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

For those hunting on BC, don't cut the skull like the one in the pic.

PARTS REQUIRED
For mountain sheep (ie. Dall’s, Stone’s,
California or Rocky Mountain):

•

the portion of the skull

including the nasal bones, the
entire eye-socket, the horns
and the associated connective
bone structure, and
•


the horns for insertion of a numbered
aluminum plug by an officer.


BB-The jig used in BC is similar to the one shown.
While the jig uses the back(bottom) of the horn to demonstrate "squarely from the side", it's not practical in the field as the ears on the animal get in the way. So you're pretty much forced to line up the front edges of the horn bases.

You menitoned using a straight edge to visualize if the horn breaks the nose but what if a room is heavily broomed on one side but breaks the bridge with the other horn?? However, if you can see both horn tips above the bridge you're good to go.


Always leave room for error. You can't go wrong.

SSS

[buford19]

Is this correct, only one horn needs to break the bridge of the nose?

[bighornbob]

Is this correct, only one horn needs to break the bridge of the nose?

Yes. Only one horns needs to break the nose bridge.

[BiG Boar]

All your replies have helped. I was in fact counting wrong, which is why so many 8.5 y/o seemed to be only 7.5. I am pretty sure I have got it figured out now. Definitley something to be confident in, if you have the right glass, and KNOW you're doing it right. Er on the side of caution of course, but I think this is case closed.

[Displaced Nova Scotian]

Hello guys,
I am bringing this old post to life again as I wanted to address an issue I have been having in determining the legality of rams that appear to have a full curl (in that their horn(s) are completely circular) however by the text book definition:
"...means any male thinhorn mountain sheep whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely form the side..."

their horn does not extend upwards beyond the horehead-nose bridge. Perhaps I am missing something however with this photo (of a Dall sheep, but the principal still applies: http://www.fullcurl.net/imagepages/image1.htm) it seams to me that the horn curls so tight that it doesn't break the forehead-nose bridge and instead runs parallel with the horn base.

Thanks for your time!

Cheers

[Wild Images]

The horns break the plane that the nose is on and is perfectly legal, see them all the time.
Here is one we took in 2011 !
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/wildimages/091_zpseff964aa.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/wildimages/media/091_zpseff964aa.jpg.html)

[Roughneck Country]

Most pics are taken at various angles making it difficult to asses if they are legal or not. If a sheep is plugged its legal leave it at that.

As a rule of thumb if you are looking up hill the animal will appear larger, if looking downhill animals appear smaller. (Look at hunting mags almost always the animals that look like real woppers have apoint of view where te camera is held low and angled up. Also if you are trying to talk yourself into shooting it, its not a trophy even if t is legal let him pass. Sheep shouldn't be hunted like deer, I know how hard it is to let a legal ram walk, I had my first shot at one after 5 years of hunting them, he was at least 2 years shy of being a real trophy I second guessed myself not shooting but now I am glad I didn't he wasn'a big ram. Sheep should be managed as a trophy species and as such you need to lettem go to lettem grow. (Sorry for the soap box)

A word of caution about counting rings, this can get you into trouble, a sheep can develope false annuli for sevral reasons, my dall sheep had 11 or 12 rings but was aged at 7.5 years old. (Had 3 or 4 false annuli) If it came down to beng legal or not I think I would have had a good case but long story short I would never rely on aging a ram myself for its legality. False annuli can develop if the animal gets sick and also if there is a drought and the grass dries up to early (this is what i was told by the biologist in Alaska) Long story shot if you see a trophy sheep you will know its a trophy sheep! Kind of like deer or elk, i your talking yourself into it being big enough, its not likly that large, the real woppers you know are big at first site!

[Roughneck Country]

The horns break the plane that the nose is on and is perfectly legal, see them all the time.
Here is one we took in 2011 !
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/wildimages/091_zpseff964aa.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/wildimages/media/091_zpseff964aa.jpg.html)

Pretty sure i ft his pic was taken with the head and camera angle perfectly square it would look well past full curl. Nice ram!

[71_camaro]

Has anyone seen dustin roe from gunwerks stone from 2012? The wide one. Im a rookie but it looks way short and 7 at best to me. What am I missing?

[Alpine85]

Has anyone seen dustin roe from gunwerks stone from 2012? The wide one. Im a rookie but it looks way short and 7 at best to me. What am I missing?

Pretty sure Dusty never killed a Stone in 2012....guided? Sure.

[Displaced Nova Scotian]

Ken, I took the photo you posted and added some colored lines for clarification.
In this photo we see that the horn (green line) does break the plane that the nose is on (red line) but this could also happen with an immature ram as well, depending upon how far you extended this "green" line...right?
4566

So I am still unsure on how these rams are deemed legal.

Roughneck Country, thanks for the post; I will be avoiding counting anuli for a good many years as I am no where close to comfortable in aging them as of yet, even with the help from Big Whiteys website! I am preparing myself physically for the hike up the mountains but that walk down, with nothing, could be very hard on my head...

[71_camaro]

alpine85 here's the youtube link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV54PtqmmiQ The sheep is at the end of the video. let me know what you think, thx

[limit time]

Yes. Only one horns needs to break the nose bridge.
I have a pic that will show this. I can't post it but I can e mail the pic to some one who can.