Failures to Learn From (Elk)

[dapesche]

So I've had some elk success the last 3 years, after failing in my first year. I called in two bulls last year for partners and I've gotten two bulls solo, which includes this years bull.

I am fortunate to live in the West Koots so I can get out to hunt elk in the morning and be home by 11am.
I don't envy you guys that hit the road to hunt elk for 4-7 days. It's tough and you typically need a ton of time just to find the elk. When you find the elk, you hope you have successful first attempt.

I managed to find the elk early in the season and then managed to **** up every opportunity I had.
This is both a journal for myself so the mistakes get etched into my brain so I can learn from them.
Hopefully you can learn from these failures too.



How To Fail #1: Bringing a buddy on an archery elk hunt...

So opening morning, Sept 1, was a bust. I bring the guy that got me into hunting up into a spot that I had seen a real nice 6 point in 2 weeks prior. We access through private land and then head up. He brought his grandson, and we all marched up slope. By 8am there was no answers and no fresh sign (from that morning or previous day). It was nice morning out but we headed down and call it a day.

I had another buddy that really wanted to come out to experience a hunt. He shoots a lot at the range but he doesn't hunt. So because the morning ended so soon, I go into another spot and hike in to look for sign. I find sign from that morning. I do a quick reccy hike and find some beds. The elk beds are identified in the picture. I didn't want to hang out and spread my scent so I pull out and let my buddy know we're heading in tomorrow am.

So we head in the next morning and you can see the first bugle location. It was a good spot to bugle from to see if they were still in the beds. You can figure out your own calling strategy for this but digging into elk calling.
I received two replies to my bugles from the beds and then it went quiet. I figured the bull was driving his cows away. We hurried to the beds and there was fresh sign everywhere.

From the beds, text bugle was more aggressive from me, and the bull answered only once, and it was not a reply to me but a request to his cows to get their asses moving.
We then proceed to half jog up the road to catch-up. At the 'X' before the switch back, I stopped because it was a good spot to slow our roll and I wanted to see if I got an inreach from my buddy who was out hunting as well.
When we stopped we heard the sound of the herd about 40 yds upside of the road.

I figured I was close enough now and I challenged the bull, and he answered around that X above the switch back. He sounded really pissed off. My buddy and I get to the switch back. The bull was raking and answering all my challenges and chuckles. He stopped bugling and then it sounded like he was walking straight at us breaking everything in his path. Like someone driving a truck through the brush. It was epic.

Because he was on a straight path towards us, I figured that he was going to come straight in on that trajectory and that's when I ****ed up. I nock an arrow, get my footing and then look over to my buddy who was wondering where he should be. I just signaled him to stay put and to hide behind some roadside brush. He did and he squatted there and waited.

The bull was probably about 20 yds from the switch back when he changed course. Instead of coming out on my right side, he doubles back and swings behind me. The wind was perfect no matter where he came from so I wasn't concerned, but in the moment I wasn't thinking about telling my friend to run across the road quick.

Well the bull comes out towards the switch back on a trail that is just above road grade. I watch him come out and stop, staring straight at my friend from 12-15yds. I could see the white tips of the bull's first few tines and his eyes just as he spins. My friend looks like that guy that is sitting on the toilet in the Jurassic Park movie. He was just sitting there fully exposed because of the different angle the bull came in at.

The bull never did come back in but there was a smaller satellite that came in but wouldn't step into the open for a shot. Probably would've been 20yds. I had my buddy rake to see if it would get the satellite curious to step out but that bull ran upslope. He'd obviously had his ass kicked over the past few days.

We laughed because it was just a perfect morning and encounter, except for me not arrowing the bull. I was 12yds from the spot he would've come down onto the road. After the fact, I felt like shit b/c I really wanted an archery bull this year and that was my chance.

So moral of the story, if you bring a friend out to hunt who isn't calling for you, make damn sure you have a plan should a bull come in....keep 'em close.
In hindsight, I'd keep a person right behind me. Seems obvious now, but in the moment things a happen quick.

This was the first of three significant failures....which I'll also share.


https://i.imgur.com/I8UGpMlh.jpg

[Rob Chipman]

That is some good stuff right there, dapesche! Nice work.

[dapesche]

That is some good stuff right there, dapesche! Nice work.

Thanks Rob.

[Dannybuoy]

That is some good stuff right there, dapesche! Nice work.
X 2 . Nice with the maps ! And yes , when separated from the hunter , funny the target bull/buck seem to find a way to walk right past the buddy .

[dapesche]

How to Fail #2: Lose sight of your hunting partner...


This one was painful. So after the first encounter, I had a pretty good sense of where the herd was heading. My hunting partner joins me this time and we make a plan as we drive into the hunting spot. Park the truck, walk the road to the spot and follow the same process as Failure #1. The herd is there again, but its the same playbook where they run from us. I hurried to the first switchback and get eyes on the bull. By the time I was able to count 6 and have the bull ranged he is disappearing from view and heading back towards their beds. He was about 150yds away up slope and was a really nice 6pt. He was the same herd bull from failure #1.

Hunting partner catches up at switchback and we head to switchback number #2. We decide to chill out, let thermals switch and then head in to attempt to pull him from the beds.

1.5hr later, we head up the road and bugle from location #1. We get a very angry response from the bull. We make our way to location #2 and bugle again. No response. We decide to pressure by moving closer. The plan was for my hunting partner to move down to my left and I'd draw the bull in and partner would shoot it.

How it play out and the lesson learned So I moved to the spot labelled bugling and raking. I was there maybe 5 mins. The cut in the picture isn't showing the true growth now, but the planted trees were probably 7-8 ft tall. So my partner was about 30 yds to my left but I could see him. I also could see much in front of me and I had ran too far towards the timber and the bank that rolls downslope. I moved back from the slope and was probably 30yds from the drop off. As I moved around to get set up I lost track of where my partner was.

I proceeded to rake and challenge. While I was moving around my partner had followed me down towards slope so I thought he was possibly further behind me but he was actually to my left and set up....not moving.

So after bugling and raking I stopped and went silent trying to figure out where everyone was. Bull had no made any more bugles. He was silent too.

My view towards the slope was like a V. I was at the base on of the V and my view opened towards the slope.
So I'm not moving. I can hear very light foot steps coming from my left, from the rough direction of where my partner was. Like many times before, after a set up doesn't work we regather....

So this dickhead bull I guess walks about 20 yds in front of my partner to the left, and no shot presented himself. The bull then swings hard to the left and makes its way to me. This 6-700# animal sounds like my partner walking quietly towards me.

I had put my rifle down to rake and bugle, and I'm standing there with my bugle tube in one hand and a stick in the other. The sounds is probably 15yds away I get that feeling like maybe it's the bull so I grab the rifle but don't want to hold it up in the sounds direction and it turns out to actually be my partner and some terrible accident happens, so I have my rifle in my hands but aimed down.

The bull skirts the left side of my 'V' viewing area. He sticks tight to the trees and it's only when he is about 8yds away that he peaks through last tree in front of me to my left. He sees me and spooks. Straight down into the draw and he is gone.

F*ck.

Moral of the Story: if possible, do your best to stay in view of your hunting partner. If I knew where he was then that bull would've been a dead bull on Sept 10th.https://i.imgur.com/t1Gqg85h.jpg

[high horse Hal]

thanks for continuing the lessons )
Is that entire area between the two lesson locations actually a naked slope?

[dapesche]

Failure #3: I think this is more of a patience / killer instinct / more shooting practice:

So this was a pretty good set up. Kind of nailed it and it was a painful failure because I kind of did everything I needed to do.

So this was an evening solo hunt and an attempt to draw that bull out of his bed again. Made the drive in. Parked it. Walked straight up FSR to bugle location #1.
First call got an instant reply. Bull must have made his way upslope to feed for evening. I believe this was around peak rut.

Thermals were just starting to flip as it cooled so instead of walking FSR back down slope I wanted to draw him out with some noise, so I brush busted my way through the cut and bugled about level with him.

I waited on the road for a bit until the wind was good and then went to the bugle location #3. Bugle and chuckle (in opposite direction) with some raking. Probably tried that 4 or 5 times and there was no reply. This is where the patience part may have paid off. I have no patience so I went at the bull.

I got to bugle location #4 but I did not bugle there right away. When I got to that spot, I could see the neck and head of the bull approx 40-50 yds from me. No vitals, just neck and head. He was the satellite I had seen before and he was a small 6. He had found some nice brush and was just doing a rolling rake. Nothing aggressive. Just making his whereabouts known. I was at his 10 or 11 o'clock and I contemplated sneaking closer b/c I've heard that you can move closer when they are raking, but I just felt I was too close and to come in at that angle. Some folks likely would've shot him in the head, no doubt.

But I decided to bugle in the other direction. Bull stops raking and starts walking towards me, but then disappears. There is a bit of a draw between him and I that I didn't know about and now the bull is out of site. Bull appears on the edge of the slope I just climbed up but there is a row of trees along the edge that are 8 ft tall, so I see antler but no shot. I then bugle upslope and to the right hoping he'd bounce back of the edge and circle around above me. He does not...

He is now 6yds away from me with three young trees between us. I'm bugling as loud as I can facing the other direction and the bulls chuckling. It was pretty epic and kind of funny at the same time. He goes silent and I try to look between the lower branches of the tree to see if I can see legs or vitals. Well the SOB was peaking too and I damn near could have poked him with my rifle.

He spins and runs, I bugle and stop him. He's rutted up and dumb and did leave, but is now skeptical. He then circles round down slope of me. I can see where a shot may present itself between a couple big firs 15-20 yds downslope. I grab bugle tube to stop him and as I go to bark the bull stops and looks between the two trees. I'm standing there like a moron, frozen, with a bugle tub in my mouth. Bull drops his head and I should rifle. Bull looks again and I have 3/4 of his face in my cross hairs at call it 20yds. I don't feel it's ethical. No shot, bull keeps circling then stops broadside behind some brush. No etical shot again....

he winds me and it's done.

Moral of the story:
1) be patient if you can. Time goes by slower than it feels in these encounters.
2) Practice with your weapon in scenarios that you'll be faced with. I wasn't 100% where the bullet would hit at that close of a distance and I have no idea how accurate I could be in that situation.
3) killer instinct really comes from being in more situations and understanding shots you can and cannot take. I think that is just purely experience more than anything but my relative lack of experience resulted in that bull walking.


Hope these three scenarios help some of you new elk hunters understand the game, the flow of how it can play out and the variables you need to consider when getting it done with a bull. Even when you think you've absolutely nailed the set up, like I thought I had in Failure #3, shit happens that is out of your control.


https://i.imgur.com/75ODFOKh.jpg

[dapesche]

thanks for continuing the lessons )
Is that entire area between the two lesson locations actually a naked slope?

it was logged. Area now has younger trees that seem to be 8-10ft high.

[high horse Hal]

the christmas tree farm , been in those.
I can see your point on patience, waiting at 3 which had better sight lines?

I have a spot sort of similar, I'm building a high seat in mature trees at the edge
after being busted twice by trying to close the distance, next year I want to wait him out.

[dapesche]

the christmas tree farm , been in those.
I can see your point on patience, waiting at 3 which had better sight lines?

I have a spot sort of similar, I'm building a high seat in mature trees at the edge
after being busted twice by trying to close the distance, next year I want to wait him out.


Good luck! follow up with stories. Prefer to read hunting stuff vs. covid threads :)

[Bubbacanuck]

Awesome write up! Nice to have a hunting thread to read.

Elk have been elusive for me, so it’s great to hear stories I can relate to!

[dapesche]

Awesome write up! Nice to have a hunting thread to read.

Elk have been elusive for me, so it’s great to hear stories I can relate to!

Tough task for you lower mainland hunters. Tough to scout.
Figured I'd share how I have failed.

I ended up getting my bull late in the Season. He didn't even bugle, but I know that my failures led to my success.

[Bubbacanuck]

Tough task for you lower mainland hunters. Tough to scout.
Figured I'd share how I have failed.

I ended up getting my bull late in the Season. He didn't even bugle, but I know that my failures led to my success.

Ya it can be pretty tough to get to know an area well and to scout when you’re a 10-14hr drive away.

I wish I could live in the koots or peace but just doesn’t happen in my line of work.

That’s great you got a bull though!! One day I will get mine haha

[HarryToolips]

Good on you Dapesche for not taking a shot that you didn't feel comfortable with.. and thanks for taking us along on your experiences...

Off the top of my head, I learned 2 big lessons before harvesting a bull with my hunt partner..

1). Assume there could be a herd of cows with each bull - we had a bull calling back and forth on the last morning of archery only, and we assumed by his calling, and not hearing any cows that he was alone.. he wasn't, when I called him and gad him moving toward my partner with bow, we were so focused on him and his movements that we didn't realize that we were exposed visually to the cows by a different angle that they could see us from while we held tight to a tree..

2). Don't let your emotion in your bugle become too aggressive and scare them away...the morning of rifle opener we had a bull screaming back and forth with me and we were cutting off the distance and the bugling was getting more intense...we got close (as we determined by a very fresh scrape) but I raked a little too aggressively and bugled too intensely to try and get him to show himself and he went quiet..at least I believe that's the reason he completely disappeared...it also could have been the wind, but I never detected a steady wind at that time but it's possible..

[Bugle M In]

Good stuff.
Hunting can be hard with a partner, especially when you have a partner that is not up to speed on elk hunting etc.
And yes, a partner that does not bugle, or at least cow call, makes it even more frustrating at times because you eventually
encounters where you look at the situation and say "if only my partner could throw a cow call in right now or bugle etc".
And yes, i have many F ups , but i have also learned from those mistakes as well and because of the mistakes, found success.
Plus, a lot of the times the screw up end up being way more exciting/entertaining, then a shot thru a shooting lane, bang, flop,
done!

Here are a few things i have learned and what i have done to change the outcome.
(I cant however change the fact that when the bull does step out, its only a 5pt lately!!):

Wind is critical, and a bull knows exactly to the inch where you are if you are calling.
For wind, expect a bull to come close, to a point where he might be able to "peak" at you, but not expose himself for a shot, stare
at you (because that is where you are/had called from), and if he doesn't see you, but still is curious, that they will head thru
timber/cover (usually) to the down wind side of you. (game over then).
So, with a partner, if we know the bull is coming in quick, we know he will stop (so look for the inline direction of where he is
coming from and pick an area where he can "peak" directly at you)
During that time, I have my hunting partner, move to my down wind side and somewhat towards bull, quietly, and watch the
"side door" so to speak.
There is the option to move your partner well in front of you, while you call, to a spot where the bull is coming from (but
that is usually when the bull is a long way off but you have seen/heard him coming).
Only problem with that is, your partner may not pick the right spot and the bull could come out not where you planned.
One thing that works well is the "caller walks away" method.
So, I might be bugling and cow calling, and generally my partner will cow call where he is sitting a ways away from me.
Then, we hear the bull coming (sometimes calling, sometimes a chipmunk going rank and the little snaps of branches of a silent
bull).
I will signal my hunting partner to "take my spot".
But before he does, make a couple of cow calls from his original spot first.
Then I back out, directly away from the incoming bull.
Act like a bull that knows the bull is coming and is trying to round up his cows and leave dodge.
Quite often, the incoming bull will go right to where i was originally bugling. (spraying scent can help)
And he walks right into my partner! who is sitting there silent.

Because my hunting partner doesn't bugle, I will sometimes join him for the first 10 minutes or so in the morning and evening
hunts, do some high pitch bugling for him, and then after 10 minutes, head down river/down wind maybe a couple of hundred
yards to my spot.
Then bugle, will he "responds to my bugle with a few cow calls every time after i bugle"
Well, he has had a few encounters now with bulls walking towards him from up river.

But, bulls can be a bit leery none the less.
Sometimes they are so worked up, nothing will stop them from coming right in.
But i would say most decide to hold up at a certain point because they want to make actual "eye contact" with the bull or cow
they have heard talking.
We have found that the Montana elk decoy has made a big difference in "stand locations".
Suddenly they see that decoy, and they keep on coming in.
(that damn decoy looks real from only a few feet away!!)

Also one time where i was calling up on a hump of a cut block, right in the middle of it.
Nothing happening, so my partner went for a walk down and out of the cut block and down the road for a click or 2.
Looking for sign, but not using his cow call.
Then, on his way back, he started using the cow call, acting like a cow hearing my bugles and trying to call out and come to me.
Well, half ways back, he hears a bugle about 500 yards to his left.
So, my partner kept coming back to me, still cow calling, and was half ways to me (maybe 400m away still) and half way
back thru the cut block.
And then suddenly out of the top of the cut block comes this bull, mid day, 30+ temps.
At that point, my partner stopped cow calling, and i took over both bugling and cow calling.
The bull passed by my partner at 100 yards, but he didn't have a shot, but i did at 15ft.

But your experiences with bugling and having a bull walk away with cows happens more then most folks realize.
Sometimes the bull and cows don't make a peep. they just round up and walk off.
Bugling can be advantages, it also can have its drawbacks, it just depends.
Spotting and stalking is best, but not all locations is that possible to hunt like that.

One last thing about wind.
The geography of the area you are in can change wind flow!
It might be blowing east to west, for the most part for example.
I had a bull down in a creek below us (south).
He had been resting in a wallow cooling all day beside the creek in some really thick crap.
Got him bugling, he started to head up the creek, which was below us in elevation, but i was out on the north side of a landing.
After a few minutes, it sounded like he had stopped coming towards us.
So, I thought i will walk across it, get over to the drop off where the creek goes down and see if i have a shot.
Well, he was coming up still, just quietly.
And got got to the end of landing and the creek, and suddenly i realized the wind, was now traveling down the creek!
The real wind was east to west, but this creek flowing downhill was "sucking" the wind around it downhill and south.
Only right there by the creek!
Well, he came up quick, i was on one side of tree well that was laying there, and he had to come up a steep bank.
First came the white tipped tines, followed by large beams and then just as quickly eyes and nose, all in a split second!
I could have touched hi muzzle had i know he was coming up!
Well, suddenly i can see his nostrils flare wide open, and basically big white eyeballs as he suddenly had the "oh shit!" moment!
(I am pretty sure i did too!!)
And he swung and high tailed it out of there!
All happened it what seemed like a 1/10 of a second and in one complete motion.

I should have just "stayed put" on the other side of the landing!
I thought he had stopped coming.
Also, this bull came in on us the night before, roaring away, buddy set up 50 yards ahead of me, and only seconds from
being in sight, and then for no reason, veered off and into thicker timber.
No reason, no noise was made by us and wind was perfect, the bull just got cold feet I suppose??
That's why I thought he was going to do the same thing, thus the lack of patience.

Or those are just some of what i have experienced, and how i use some tactics that seem to work.
Just be nice if all these 5pt bulls the last number of years was a 6pt.
And yes, these bulls have cows with them often enough, so not much to do differently.
Thats where the "luck" comes in.

[dapesche]

those are some solid experiences you shared. thanks for adding to the list.

[jimzuk]

Yes thanks very much for sharing your learning experiences

[Elkaddict]

Awesome read dapesche, and good info BMI. I’ve experienced a lot of what you’ve both written.

Cows are a huge liability when you are trying to sneak into a bull. You never ever figure out where they all are, and it’s always the one you miss that busts you.

Bulls come in in so many different ways I’ll never figure it out 100% of the time, but that is part of the allure of hunting elk. Even a missed “Oh shit” opportunity puts a huge grin on my face. I’ve beat myself up pretty good over some failures, but in the end they too are part of all the excellent memories.

[Bugle M In]

^^^^^Yes, cows can present a big problem, especially the lead cow.
She is the one who has the 6th sense that something lurks close by.
So while the rest of the harem, and even the bull, sit there grazing, she's the one that will stare at you for 10 minutes straight.

Another thing, and my buddy tuaght us the hard way, was that a young bull (3pt or so) can mess up you hunt as well.
I was sitting on the hum in middle of cut block, and I cover the north/east view while partner sits off to the side watching
the south/west area.
Well, I was bugling when suddenly I had several cows start chirping at me, maybe 100yd out in front of me, and maybe 50yrd
of that distance is timber they were in.
Well, I told my partner what was going on, but he was having his constitutional somewhere off behind us.
Then I finally got a response from a real growler, just roaring away.
Well, my buddy suddenly realizes what is going on, and decides he better get back to his spot.
He's moving back quickly, but there is no fear of wind or making any sound to alarm those elk.
But, as he was moving back, past me and nearly at his spot, and looking towards the sounds of bull, he is not looking in front
of him and to the opposite side of all the action.
Well, there was a bull standing no more than 5 yards from where he usually sits, and he didnt see it.
The bull busts out, hightails right past and in front of him, and straight down to the whole herd of elk.
I did my best to swing out and up, but i could never catch up to them, but i did catch up to the 3pt.

Satellites bulls or younger bulls can be present with a bull/harem, but quite often they hang a distance away.
It can be a few hundred yards, to 1km or so away.
Sometimes those satellites are legal as well.
So, always look around even if all the action is in front of you.
You never know what could be coming in from elsewhere and often silently.

Fisherman always wonder how many times their lure is looked at, but never fully do the fish take the bite.
Turns out its a lot more than they think.
I can assure all, that there are plenty of times you thought nothing happened that day, when actually a bull or cow did come
to check you out.

[dapesche]

you guys have any experiences with sneaking in while a bull is raking? How much can you push it?

Being within 50yds and standing at the bulls 10-11 o'clock made me stay put and try to move him to a new location.

What would you have done in my situation? sneak in closer or bugle to pull him?

[Elkaddict]

We had a bull come flying into a wallow one time. Totally unprepared, not calling or anything. Just heard thundering hooves coming down the trail. Dove under a young conifer and he came flying in and proceeded to tear the crap out of the ground 15 or so yards away. My partner was 6 or 7 yds from the bull, on the wrong side of a tree. The tree he was behind was between the bull and I. I gave the lightest squeak on a cow call thinking he may turn and come towards me giving my partner a shot. The bull spun, pinned me, gave that “ oh shit” look and bolted.

If I had a do over I would have had patience and waited him out. If he came my way, partner had a shot, if he went the other way then maybe we could have turned him and brought him back with a call.

I agree with BMI above, when you. Are a call at close range they immediately know EXACTLY where you are.

[HappyJack]

you guys have any experiences with sneaking in while a bull is raking? How much can you push it?

Being within 50yds and standing at the bulls 10-11 o'clock made me stay put and try to move him to a new location.

What would you have done in my situation? sneak in closer or bugle to pull him?

Use your bugle to find them, use your cow calls to bring them in. Make a call and then move downwind as lots of times they will try to wind you before coming in. And, lots of times you will think they are only 50 yards in, but they are a lot further.

[Bugle M In]

you guys have any experiences with sneaking in while a bull is raking? How much can you push it?

Being within 50yds and standing at the bulls 10-11 o'clock made me stay put and try to move him to a new location.

What would you have done in my situation? sneak in closer or bugle to pull him?
Not sure if I fully understand the situation and if you have bush blocking the shot other than the bush he might be raking.
If is only that bush between him and you, stay put, imo
You could cow call, but if he is shooter at that point, I would hold off on bugling.
sometimes less is more, s
and if you got him in from a distance already, he got that close so far, then just wait,
He is sometimes just prepping himself to come in closer.
Sometimes he is just saying don’t come past this line.
But, some silence can piss them off as well,
He will be going “ hey, where did everyone go, wait for me” , many times.
As he thinks you might of left,
Too much calling can sometimes make them weary.
But then sometimes you can go bananas and they don’t leave.
Sorry,I know that seems full of contradictions, but 1 time it goes 1 way and next time it goes completely opposite.
But, alone, I would wait.
With a partner I would tell him to stay put and I will walk away and make a little noise will walking and cow calls.
Maybe 50 yards.

[Rezpatrol]

That's pretty awesome I've been hunting elk for 5 years without seeing any except on the hiway home lol and I've been using my year round hunting license too still nothing maybe I only have the moose gift I see lots of them