Koota elk population

[Grolar]

where can I find or read about the koots elk population and what areas are declining and increasing.....feel free to give your opinion

[Whonnock Boy]

There was a presentation at the BCWF AGM discussing just that this past weekend. In general, the numbers are declining due to low recruitment, and high predation. The low elevation local herds were doing well due to low predation, but the migrating back county herds are getting hit hard.

http://bcwf.net/images/stories/AGM2015/Presentations/MULTI-PREDATOR%20MULTI-PREY%20SYSTEMS%20IN%20THE%20ROCKY%20MOUNTAINS%20-%20Bob%20Jamieson.pdf

[Grolar]

weren't they talking about a management plan in 2010-2014 to make the herds better or something.....what is killing the back country herds the most, predation, logging, climate change, hunting pressure?

[Whonnock Boy]

Predation mainly from grizzly, and black bear. That is what the link talks about, a management plan for all species including predators, with target harvest rates.


weren't they talking about a management plan in 2010-2014 to make the herds better or something.....what is killing the back country herds the most, predation, logging, climate change, hunting pressure?

[The Dawg]

http://bcwf.net/images/stories/AGM2015/Presentations/MULTI-PREDATOR%20MULTI-PREY%20SYSTEMS%20IN%20THE%20ROCKY%20MOUNTAINS%20-%20Bob%20Jamieson.pdf

[Bugle M In]

I felt for sometime now, that there should be a small leh grizz hunt for the fall in the koots.
I know I am frowned upon by some for saying that in the past, but that still hasn't changed my opinion.
Ya sure, a spring hunt is available, but for some like myself, the only viable time I have is in the fall.
And yes, more winter range being created would help, as would removing some Wolf packs.
Although, with all the logging that has been done, you would think habitat isn't necessarily the primary problem to the decline in elk #'s??
Some say, that due to less snow over the years, that less avalanches occur, which now does not create the new feeding areas for elk in the high country come the following spring/ summer...
there could be some truth to that as well I suppose.
I certainly don't think that the low #'s are do to over harvesting by hunters, so predation seems to make the most sense in my books.
And to back that up, wolves and Grizz are all over the place now, in the area in which I hunt anyways....way, way more than I have ever seen, and for now, I don't see them as declining anytime soon.
At least not until much of the prey, elk and whities decline to a number where they, the predators can no longer sustain themselves, which could be a long time yet still, unless we take some steps to
drop their numbers, so that the elk can repopulate...

[Whonnock Boy]

Small??? With only 50 bears being harvested yearly, an estimated 4500 bear population, and a 6-8% recruitment rate, we could increase the harvest substantially. They would be treading water with a 150 to 200 bear harvest. Social management at its best.


I felt for sometime now, that there should be a small leh grizz hunt for the fall in the koots.
I know I am frowned upon by some for saying that in the past, but that still hasn't changed my opinion.

[BgBlkDg]

Based on recent conversations with a fifth-generation Kootenay hunter-trapper, private pilot, VERY successful Elk hunter, who just did a flyover check of West Kootenays Elk country, there were Wolf tracks everywhere and very few ungulate tracks.

I was there last Oct. in some fine country and I have as much serious bush experience there as anyone and in five days, I saw three Elk, at night, no Moose and no deer. There was LOTS of bear sign, rained too hard to see Wolf sign and in past years, I usually would have seen at least some game in daylight hours.

"Social management" IS precisely the problem.

[Whonnock Boy]

I should clarify, there are 4500 bears from Jasper to Bob Marshall Wilderness in the states. Let's say for arguments sake 3000 of them are within the region 4 boundaries. 2% mortality is taken off the top for 60 bears, which leaves 120 to 180 for hunting. Still a far cry from a 50 bear annual harvest.


Small??? With only 50 bears being harvested yearly, an estimated 4500 bear population, and a 6-8% recruitment rate, we could increase the harvest substantially. They would be treading water with a 150 to 200 bear harvest. Social management at its best.

[Derp]

wolves are also doing a number on the herds. I personally witnessed wolves chase a herd through the spotting scope last year.

[Bugle M In]

Last years hunting in the east koots for elk was dismal for me atleast.
There were very few elk sign around, but wolf and grizz/blacks tracks were in abundance, way more that normal (30+ years of hunting there)
I cant say how many elk were actually around...
But, I did notice that the few elk we saw were in some not so usual places on the mountainside etc., in very awkward locations IMO.
I suspect the reason for this was to avoid the predators that seemed to be wondering all over the river valley bottoms, and mountain benches.
And no, heat wasn't a factor...it was quite cool and IMO, good conditions to be hunting that week.
For me, I would love to see a Fall Time LEH for Grizz, and yes, Black bear tags in hand for this season.....you don't even have to ask me about the wolves...fire away!

Also, on a side note about predators, I have seen way more Cougars as well, something I had never seen in all my years up there until the past 5 years....multiple times in a week now,
and they were different cats each time.

[MOUNTAIN MICKEY]

we need to down size our gbear population and declare an all out war on wolves out here.

[blackbart]

How about the roads, beef cattle and human population density in the trench, and the continuous degradation of winter habitat? Golf courses and condos seem to be more permanent that predator populations. Sure predators are on the rise, but me thinks man is more invasive....

Regarding previous comment on avalanche and associated summer habitat I personally don't think that is the problem. Did a fairly aggressive backcountry trip a couple of seasons ago and saw a huge amount of fantastic remote and undeveloped summer/early fall habitat that was not being used. Very few elk were in what is traditionally PRIME fall habitat.

Spent some time this winter in the area for work and saw some valley bottom elk, so perhaps there is some hope???

Feedback welcomed.

[aggiehunter]

maybe stop rifle hunting in the rut and then see what happens...omg....

[OutWest]

maybe stop rifle hunting in the rut and then see what happens...omg....

The ultimate pessimist strikes again LOL

[Whonnock Boy]

Did you read the report? What does hunting in the rut have to do with recruitment rates, and predation?


maybe stop rifle hunting in the rut and then see what happens...omg....

[Bugle M In]

maybe stop rifle hunting in the rut and then see what happens...omg....


okay...yaaaaa......that will fix the problem??????????????
what does rifle season have to do with no elk ( if that is really the case ), in the summer, which, just so you are properly informed, is before hunting season even opens....???!!!!and if the #'s are down.
anyways, unless you can prove that the rifle season is the reason for the total decline in elk, you won't get any respect around here....well at least not from me.
Not that I have anything against bow hunters, but really???, that is your solution to everything???

I could see it now...all us so called "new Canadians", running around with bows....while the stewards of the land, the indigenous people of Canada sit in the back of pickup boxes, holding
semi-automatics with high powered optics, hunting in their traditional manner....lololol.

I don't think hunting with a bow will impact the elk #'s and thus create enormous growth in the elk numbers, just because u banned hunting with rifles etc.
Give an experienced elk hunter a crossbow, and most of them would still be successful, given that many bulls can be brought inside 60 yrds.
But, maybe we should have the regs changed so that the early bow season should be 6pt or better only as well???!!!
Hell, if that will fix it, why wouldn't we give those smaller, inexperienced bulls some time to grow up??
Why should bow season be "Any Bull" ???
Just saying!!!!

Elk decline hasn't been the result of over hunting due to rifles.
And now you want guys to run around with a bow and try to also make a dent in the wolf population???

Ok...jokes on me...I actually wasted some time responding to that post...

[aggiehunter]

I almost thought it was a waste to suggest something simple like that too but couldn't resist....not sure why wanting more elk would be consider pessimism but oh well....boys just take a look at other jurisdictions with less gos during the rut...they don't seem to whine as much also.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I almost thought it was a waste to suggest something simple like that too but couldn't resist....not sure why wanting more elk would be consider pessimism but oh well....boys just take a look at other jurisdictions with less gos during the rut...they don't seem to whine as much also.

We'll buy that if you can explain how killing only 6pt plus bulls will cause the population to go down.

[Elkaholic]

We'll buy that if you can explain how killing only 6pt plus bulls will cause the population to go down.

I will go the reverse of what you are asking. My thoughts on riffle out of the rut are this: Less herd bulls will get chased right out of the country, yes there will be guys with bows out but it wont be the pressure that the gun hunt will have on them. This will allow a lot of the normally shot bulls to hopfully breed the cows in Sept. Then I say fire up the riffles in Oct and you will have more running around at that time and they wont be a skittish. They will now get shot but have been given that month of Sept with lower pressure to breed and continue the blood line. Those have always been my thoughts on it. As far as 6pt season I personally think its a debacle, for the most part we are genetically selecting the more mature bulls... Not always granted you get rag horn 6's but usually the big mature bulls are 6pt or better. I also thought it was proven many times over that 6pt season is not one meant for year after year use, but as a temporary measure to bring up recruitment.

By no means am I saying I am a guru or anything, those are just my thoughts and like all of you I think that our valleys here could hold a hell of a lot more elk. Hell the BIO's here say we can hold ~94000 elk in region 4 alone. So why cant we get it there, we all know why.... POLITICS. I think there are a lot of good ideas and thoughts to ponder in this thread. I just hope one day we can actually get the MoE to move on some things to get our herds back up.

[Whonnock Boy]

What jurisdictions, and how are there predator numbers?


boys just take a look at other jurisdictions with less gos during the rut...they don't seem to whine as much also.

[J_T]

Elk populations in the trench do have a significant predator contribution to the overall number. But it is also important to understand the Gov decision to actively reduce the number of homesteader elk in the trench. Approximately 15,000 elk were deemed to many and so the implementation of more cow/calf seasons were introduced. The numbers dropped to about 1/3 with about 5000 homesteader elk now. In contradiction to the overall theme that is coming out of this thread, lower elk numbers in the trench (due primarily to female harvests) are why we are now hunting our elk in the back country. Where there is a ton of good habitat, low predator numbers and high elk populations.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Elk populations in the trench do have a significant predator contribution to the overall number. But it is also important to understand the Gov decision to actively reduce the number of homesteader elk in the trench. Approximately 15,000 elk were deemed to many and so the implementation of more cow/calf seasons were introduced. The numbers dropped to about 1/3 with about 5000 homesteader elk now. In contradiction to the overall theme that is coming out of this thread, lower elk numbers in the trench (due primarily to female harvests) are why we are now hunting our elk in the back country. Where there is a ton of good habitat, low predator numbers and high elk populations.

Thats not what the bio presented to us last weekend. I'm sure there are still some high country valleys where the elk numbers are good but he said many formerly great valleys are now void of elk. Migration trails are now grown in with moss. Maybe the elk are now using different habitat due to wolf pressure? Not sure but overall numbers are coming down at a good pace

[Fisher-Dude]

Thats not what the bio presented to us last weekend. I'm sure there are still some high country valleys where the elk numbers are good but he said many formerly great valleys are now void of elk. Migration trails are now grown in with moss. Maybe the elk are now using different habitat due to wolf pressure? Not sure but overall numbers are coming down at a good pace

Quit posting facts. We want rhetoric!

**************************************


6 point bull harvest has no effect on the overall elk population. Rifle, bow, spear harvest, and pre-/post-/full-rut harvest of 6 points does nothing to the number of elk the following year. The cows are all getting bred, sex ratios are fine.

Elk numbers are declining in the backcountry because of poor calf recruitment due to predators.

We know there are certain people promoting special weapons seasons at prime elk hunting dates in order to drive down the number of elk hunting competitors, but that's a purely social desire and has nothing to do with elk management. Let's just stick to the science of the seasons that allows us to take the harvestable surplus of animals for the dinner table, and stick the social management of hunters where the sun don't shine.

[J_T]

Thats not what the bio presented to us last weekend. I'm sure there are still some high country valleys where the elk numbers are good but he said many formerly great valleys are now void of elk. Migration trails are now grown in with moss. Maybe the elk are now using different habitat due to wolf pressure? Not sure but overall numbers are coming down at a good pace

I don't disagree we need to target predators. I know Bob, if that's who made the presentation and I'm not suggesting he's way off. He is, talking about a much bigger picture and over a much larger period of time. And he's correct, formerly great valleys and alpine basin's aren't the places to find elk as we commonly used to. I'm sure he spoke about highway fragmentation as well as roads, and I'm sure he touched on the influence of communities such as Sparwood as impacting 100's of years of traditional migration. As with any species, it's important to watch your prey, understand it's trends, and anticipate where your best hunt is going to be. The elk, are adapting. No question about it. We must too.

In answer to your earlier question, no a 6 pt season is not bringing numbers down. That's the rhetoric the 13 year old in FD wants acknowledged. But in the front country, we have had a number of years of relatively open season on elk females. It was done to bring populations down, and it did. In fact, a more liberal bow season would have been sustainable. But, using hunters as a management tool, it's the rifle that has the biggest impact. Not bows.

FD, needs to take a hard look at his statements. Instead of going after "Everyone else" for messing up his life, has he ever considered why his situation is what it is, could be because of who he is? Such a dick. He has no credibility with me and if he or any other 'residents' really want to create more 'everything', it's time to open up, accept other people who may not think exactly the same and quit picking up the beat stick and chasing people away. His actions on here have turned more people away than any allocation issue brought together. Maybe he's a good f**ker in life, but on here his net contribution is well into the negative. I believe bowhunters have used the tag line of science based wildlife management much longer than you have FD. I'm so confused why you feel a need to berate people who simply are more conservation minded than you. Why not just accept that not everyone thinks the same as you. You aren't always right you know.

[GoatGuy]

Problem = declining elk populations

Solutions = manage predators, burn the countryside

The rest = declining elk populations

[BgBlkDg]

This ^^^^^^

[The Hermit]

^^^ yep ^^^ that would be a start but it IS more than just that stuff, its all about cumulative effects. Its really a question of managing greed and changing the typical win/lose thinking whether you are talking guides, residents, elected government hacks, FN's, or international corporations.

We really must start thinking systemically and acting strategically to change the entire system or we will continue to in-fight and mess things up. I am really starting to believe it is entirely too late to turn this ship off a course of major collapse and irretrievable loss of species and habitat.

Most biologists I know and talk with say we may as well give up on the Mountain Caribou and stop wasting time, money and effort on them - they are doomed. Some are starting to wonder about the long term viability of moose. I truly believe that we, as British Colombians of all political stripe, have failed so badly in our blind rush to extract resources from the land that they might not ever recover. Same can be said for Fishers too...

I'm pretty depressed and am going to take a break from all this... see you in June.

[Bugle M In]

I agree, it's a cumulative effect for sure.
In 30 + years, there have been plenty of changes.
Condos along the Columbia River, which were historically winter ranges for many ungulates is one thing that comes to mind.
A 6 pt implementation, that was to fix things, but has it??
The leh for cows in th 80's / 90's was a disaster in my opinion.
Government supporting the save the Grizz, even though they probably didn't need to.
The lack by many of us, not to see that wolves would grow to such #'s.
Not much in the way of summer/winter ranges being done over the years, leaving it to logging I guess, but that just created more roads, and allowing easier access is
always a minus for wildlife, especially the one being hunted.

Look at Kootenay National Park, once thriving with Elk, especially around Kootenay Crossing, they all but disappeared.
But, Ironically, someone finally did the right thing, and prescribed a large burn, which was something long over due, and I believe will be the best thing they ever did for the park.

Windfall is everywhere now, where I hunt, and those old game trails are gone!, and are no longer being used.

I agree with GG, we need to get this turned around the right way, and it needs to start with improving habitat, and taking down predators.
Than, we can debate what are the best rules for the rest of us to follow.

[aggiehunter]

There is a difference between promoting a special season and spouting off about it on an internet chat line....preds....habitat....modern devices....guys that can't count to six...and gos during the rut all has an effect on populations...just so happens WE are at the forefront so you guys decide...and the survey says!

[Whonnock Boy]

Can you please reference other jurisdictions so I can research and compare? To be honest, all you have mostly said is "alternative seasons", and "rut closures" without any evidence to support your claims, that I can remember at least. Can you elaborate with studies, or research from reputable sources?


There is a difference between promoting a special season and spouting off about it on an internet chat line....preds....habitat....modern devices....guys that can't count to six...and gos during the rut all has an effect on populations...just so happens WE are at the forefront so you guys decide...and the survey says!

[Grolar]

I think bears and wolves do a great damage to herds but remember that logging , FN's, GOs, building all adds a good % too.....roads need to be deactivated, habitat needs to be protect.....I dont know why we have a spike and a antlerless seasons thow

[Whonnock Boy]

Those are some good points. The spike/antlerless season is doing its job to mitigate "urban" elk. You should note that numbers are declining in areas that habitat is well suited for elk populations, and if only bulls are being harvested, with sex ratios in check, it has been said that hunting has little affect on overall numbers. Recruitment is the major stumbling block which all roads, deactivated or not, lead back to predation.


I think bears and wolves do a great damage to herds but remember that logging , FN's, GOs, building all adds a good % too.....roads need to be deactivated, habitat needs to be protect.....I dont know why we have a spike and a antlerless seasons thow

[Spy]

There is a difference between promoting a special season and spouting off about it on an internet chat line....preds....habitat....modern devices....guys that can't count to six...and gos during the rut all has an effect on populations...just so happens WE are at the forefront so you guys decide...and the survey says!
X2 Bang on it all plays a part, shooting the heard bulls during the rut is going to take its toll ! Even though the cows are being bred, does not mean they are getting the best & that might be the problem. GOS during the rut is in place to keep rifle hunters happy, which won't last for long when there are no bulls left to shoot! Look at whats happening to the moose pop and know the elk will be following suite if we dont change our ways!

[Whonnock Boy]

Doesn't matter if sperm comes (no pun intended) from a 4 year old bull, or a 10 year old bull. The genetic make up is the same regardless. If sex ratios are in check, cows are being bred, where does that leave us?


X2 Bang on it all plays a part, shooting the heard bulls during the rut is going to take its toll ! Even though the cows are being bred, does not mean they are getting the best & that might be the problem. GOS during the rut is in place to keep rifle hunters happy, which won't last for long when there are no bulls left to shoot! Look at whats happening to the moose pop and know the elk will be following suite if we dont change our ways!

[Spy]

Doesn't matter if sperm comes (no pun intended) from a 4 year old bull, or a 10 year old bull. The genetic make up is the same regardless. If sex ratios are in check, cows are being bred, where does that leave us?
I don't agree with you and nor does nature! If that was the case bulls would not be fighting for the chance to breed, they would not be in herds & would pair up like geese do. Nature knows best we think and like to tell ourselves we know better but have being prooven wrong over and over again!

[The Dawg]

I don't agree with you and nor does nature! If that was the case bulls would not be fighting for the chance to breed, they would not be in herds & would pair up like geese do. Nature knows best we think and like to tell ourselves we know better but have being prooven wrong over and over again!


Im not sure I buy into that.


I fought some bigger guys in my 20's for a chance to 'breed' some women...it had nothing to do with 'genetic make up'...just 'alcohol'....

[Spy]

Im not sure I buy into that.


I fought some bigger guys in my 20's for a chance to 'breed' some women...it had nothing to do with 'genetic make up'...just 'alcohol'....
Humans are not elk ! There is a reason nature made things the way she did & everytime we **** with her things start going wrong! Moose pops are so low & in big trouble instead of shutting it down we have a LEH to keep Resident Hunters happy! Our way of thinking needs to change before there is a total collapse, which I think we are near to! Im with the Hermit we sure have ****ed things up, it depressing to say the least. Im also out, done!

[Whonnock Boy]

In Alberta, the Suffield air base heard grew from 100 to 7000 in 7 years. Recruitment rate was at 45/100 due to zero predators including humans. The constant in the Koots has been hunting, and the difference has been predators. An influx of wolves, with an increasing bear population has taken its toll. That cannot be denied as both anecdotal, and scientific observations verifie that.

I understand how we have been proven wrong, but we cannot deny that science has proven many things without doubt. Some theories cannot be proven until evidence substantiates the findings. In the case of the study I linked to, we cannot deny the years of study, findings, and the overall experience of the author. If we don't have science, all we have is theories and best guesses. What would you rather work with?

With that said, I have a theory. Could it be that local or urban elk have adapted well to the urban environment? They know where to hide, and evade predators, including humans, while the migrating wintering elk are not as educated. Combine that with the low elevation late season cow LEH, and we could very well be harvesting the "wrong" elk. Not a clue, and only research, study, and science could prove that theory.

Now, comparing elk to geese, that is funny. Maybe sniffing a little too much plumbers glue? :) Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. Cheers. ;)

EDIT*** After looking at the LEH areas and season dates, I don't think my theory holds water. But hey, I'm open to new ideas.

[Whonnock Boy]

That isn't going to solve anything. Just saying......


Im also out, done!

[The Dawg]

Humans are not elk ! There is a reason nature made things the way she did & everytime we **** with her things start going wrong! Moose pops are so low & in big trouble instead of shutting it down we have a LEH to keep Resident Hunters happy! Our way of thinking needs to change before there is a total collapse, which I think we are near to! Im with the Hermit we sure have ****ed things up, it depressing to say the least. Im also out, done!


So then, should we be into the wolf cull?

[Bugle M In]

I don't agree with you and nor does nature! If that was the case bulls would not be fighting for the chance to breed, they would not be in herds & would pair up like geese do. Nature knows best we think and like to tell ourselves we know better but have being prooven wrong over and over again!

So, you and aggies thoughts are???....hunting in BC should be by bow only????
Don't think you will find much support in that.
Imagine GO's with clients that can only use a bows:shock:.
Better yet!, are indigenous folk having to learn how to use a bow:shock:, (although, that is THEIR traditional way) in order to feed their families all year round...
OMG, I would be rolling in laughter on the campfire floor, watching that happen.
And although Rifles ain't perfect, neither are bows, I've seen a few spiker's with arrows in them, during the early bow week at the beginning of September.

Also, are you telling us that 6 pt should be shut down until Oct.1....
I've taken most of my 6pt on Oct.1-3, and all with cows.
So, what are you saying??
Are you saying we should have a Sept Season, where only 3 to 5 pts can be taken???so that he 6pt can breed.
Fine by me, my success rate would only get higher!!!, even if you left me with just a Crossbow8).
But, the GO's would never go for it, THEIR clients want 6pt's...Although granted, they are getting harder to come by.

What I am saying is, the both of you will never get the support to fix anything, not if you are asking everyone to turn in the steel for carbon fibre.
It just won't happen...

So, what other options are available that will have the support of most user groups, THAT WILL help the ELK/ MOOSE etc etc.

The Rebirth of Wildlife habitat for starters, and in the short term, better predator control and more tags being issued again.
I think that is a much better direction, and will have everyone who cares support, regardless of any special interests.
And if everyone gets on board, than that is what can be pushed onto the Ministry to get their heads out of their asses.
And if the fault doesn't lie there, maybe they will start bitchin to the ones higher up, and we know who they are...

I really don't think tweaking date and weapon use and size restriction is going to fix the problem of low #'s, their only a small part of the problem.
I just irks me to see people argue on the small picture scale of things....there is a bigger problem going on right now, not just In the Koots.
Atleast one thing, we all want to see the Moose/ Elk's #'s grow, and we all agree they are down...it's a start I guess?
But, I still don't feel confident of much success this upcoming season for Elk in the Koots, not from what I've seen the past few seasons.
But, I feel VERY confident a Black bear and a wolf might hit the dirt when I go again, but, it's not what I want to go for, just something that appears to need to be done.

[BgBlkDg]

Some of the comments here are simply bizarre, based on a lack of personal biological knowledge, some "touchy-feely" ideas of how humans should modify our innate behaviour and prejudices concerning various hunting techniques.

The Kootenays, which is never called "The Koots" by we who were born and bred there, btw, it is always referred to in the plural even when commenting on one region thereof, is an example of what happens when humans populations begin to reach the carrying capacity of their habitat.


This, exacerbated by the "cool" factor that has existed since the mid-'60s, has brought a horde of newcomers to gain possession of valley bottom lands and alienate them from the available wildlife habitat. These are also people, too many Americans and other intrusive foreigners, who are anti-hunting and glorify some species over others as in the bullshit comments in local media concerning predator control. i.e., the *iconic* Grizzly and Wolf.....blech.....


They are also usually *media-savvy* and can-do put pressure on politicians to advance their oftimes ecologically indefensible agenda; this leads to government agencies being ordered to cease genuine management policies and simply go along with popular fantasy in practices.


The Elk are in decline due to ranching, ski developments, golf courses, vacation properties for outlanders, lack of predator controls, loss of sanctuary habitat due to resource extraction-road access and the disgusting issue of a certain minority being duped by governments through allowing slaughter year-round.


Can this be changed, yes, WILL it be changed, I very much doubt it and it is largely due to the sort of attitudes-behaviour we see here.Keep slagging each other and watch hunting disappear or be privatised.

[hunter1947]

The population of prey is dropping like a rock one of the main reasons is the predator problem here in the EK this kill scene is just one of many that I have seen in my foot travels here in the EK most predator kills are yearlings I have also witnessed yearling elk kills as well as adult cow kills here is a short video clip from my outing out the other day from a WT deer fawn killed by a cat..................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9i7manua_s

[BgBlkDg]

There you are, this gentleman knows a wee bit about Elk and hunting them in the Kootenays....now, lets make a public proposal for an intense, widespread kill of Wolves, Bears and Cougars as well as Bobcats and Coyotes throughout the area and see how that is received...............

*Social management*, simple and ineffective, but, it keeps the wannabes happy.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't disagree we need to target predators. I know Bob, if that's who made the presentation and I'm not suggesting he's way off. He is, talking about a much bigger picture and over a much larger period of time. And he's correct, formerly great valleys and alpine basin's aren't the places to find elk as we commonly used to. I'm sure he spoke about highway fragmentation as well as roads, and I'm sure he touched on the influence of communities such as Sparwood as impacting 100's of years of traditional migration. As with any species, it's important to watch your prey, understand it's trends, and anticipate where your best hunt is going to be. The elk, are adapting. No question about it. We must too.

In answer to your earlier question, no a 6 pt season is not bringing numbers down. That's the rhetoric the 13 year old in FD wants acknowledged. But in the front country, we have had a number of years of relatively open season on elk females. It was done to bring populations down, and it did. In fact, a more liberal bow season would have been sustainable. But, using hunters as a management tool, it's the rifle that has the biggest impact. Not bows.

FD, needs to take a hard look at his statements. Instead of going after "Everyone else" for messing up his life, has he ever considered why his situation is what it is, could be because of who he is? Such a dick. He has no credibility with me and if he or any other 'residents' really want to create more 'everything', it's time to open up, accept other people who may not think exactly the same and quit picking up the beat stick and chasing people away. His actions on here have turned more people away than any allocation issue brought together. Maybe he's a good f**ker in life, but on here his net contribution is well into the negative. I believe bowhunters have used the tag line of science based wildlife management much longer than you have FD. I'm so confused why you feel a need to berate people who simply are more conservation minded than you. Why not just accept that not everyone thinks the same as you. You aren't always right you know.

You're quite vain to think I was even talking about YOU.

I know you only promote what's best for you.

You admitted openly to other hunters that you want to see fewer hunters in the bush.

That's fine, just don't dance around your agenda.

Now, so that you understand clearly, I was addressing Ern in my first post's comments, not you. The 4 lines above this one are directed at you.

Got it?

[BgBlkDg]

WHERE, does he say that he wants fewer hunters in the bush.

I question some of his *biological* comments, especially the one about ...100s of years of traditional migration... as Elk in large numbers were not present in the region until about *The Great War*, as Hornaday, et al, mentioned.

I doubt that there is sufficient, credible, scientific evidence to make such sweeping, definitive comments on such issues, but, am certainly willing to be corrected should anyone have such information to post.

[GoatGuy]

30 years of hunting regulation changes, 30 years of decline.

What's left of the 'remote' areas in the EK is in decline as well. There are very few spots you can get away from hunters, but those places are not doing any better than the heavily hunted areas - in many cases they are worse. The most productive areas from a recruitment perspective are actually right in the trench close to people, and hunters.

Close the hunting season if you want, you'll end up in the exact same place.

[Fisher-Dude]

X2 Bang on it all plays a part, shooting the heard bulls during the rut is going to take its toll ! Even though the cows are being bred, does not mean they are getting the best & that might be the problem. GOS during the rut is in place to keep rifle hunters happy, which won't last for long when there are no bulls left to shoot! Look at whats happening to the moose pop and know the elk will be following suite if we dont change our ways!

It doesn't matter which bull does the breeding. All that's required is a sperm supply.

[BgBlkDg]

In many, perhaps most, RM Elk populations, the actual impregnation of most cows is done by *satellite bulls* covering them while the *herd bull* is busy chasing away challengers for his position.

This, tends to perhaps lessen the supposed effect of the currently popular opinion that harvesting the larger bulls only will result in a decline in the incidence of such specimens in successive generations of these organisms.

The REAL problem, all issues considered, is that hunting and management to promote it are now not a priority with many citizens in the Kootenays and so the boffins in Victoria, do not fund or staff the F&W as we know it should be.

I am damned sorry to say it, but, I doubt that this will ever change in my lifetime and I expect it will worsen.

*Iconic animals*...gawd, I detest that bullshit term and many of the halfwits who use it.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would agree with that. Shorter rifle season/longer archery season, seems to work in the USA. Better trophy quality maybe? I would also like to see more options for grizzly.

Trophy quality? How does that relate to elk conservation?

[coach]

30 years of hunting regulation changes, 30 years of decline.

What's left of the 'remote' areas in the EK is in decline as well. There are very few spots you can get away from hunters, but those places are not doing any better than the heavily hunted areas - in many cases they are worse. The most productive areas from a recruitment perspective are actually right in the trench close to people, and hunters.

Close the hunting season if you want, you'll end up in the exact same place.

Maybe we should just make it fly fishing only.. :roll:

[358mag]

Maybe we should just make it fly fishing only.. :roll:
And catch + release with barbless bullets too:roll::roll:

[GoatGuy]

Trophy quality? How does that relate to elk conservation?
This seems to fly in the face of fact. There were more 'trophy' bulls shot in the ek when it was a 3 pts season all season- back when there were also far more hunters.

Have a look at the ek big game or the bc record book.

Funny.

[6point]

This seems to fly in the face of fact. There were more 'trophy' bulls shot in the ek when it was a 3 pts season all season- back when there were also far more hunters.

Have a look at the ek big game or the bc record book.

Funny.

Do you think that the 3 point season grew bigger bulls? or was it because when we had a 3 point season it was a time when fresh new logging roads where punching their ways into some of the last untouched drainages and hunters could get back into the places that had seen little to no hunting pressure previously and them big bulls where hiding in?

[GoatGuy]

Do you think that the 3 point season grew bigger bulls? or was it because when we had a 3 point season it was a time when fresh new logging roads where punching their ways into some of the last untouched drainages and hunters could get back into the places that had seen little to no hunting pressure previously and them big bulls where hiding in?

age and high quality habitat grows size.

A bigger and more productive elk herd, with a non-selective harvest resulted in bigger bulls.

On the ground, the difference between 25 calves per 100 cows and 50 calves per 100 cows is worlds apart.

[J_T]

The mid range and back country presently has excellent habitat. More than elk can eat. It's the trench that needs continued logging and burning. The Pickering Hills as an example need a better habitat management plan. Neighbouring transitional range in some areas also needs work.

High fencing is a factor.

Back in the day, hunters were able to prepare burn plans, work with MOE and carry them out. Nothing brought hunters together like work 'for' wildlife. Current Gov policy all but took away thinning and burning options using volunteer commitment.

Resident Hunters are presently at odds with GOABC. If hunters push hard for more wildlife/elk in the trench, they will again, find themselves at odds with the ranching community. Historically opposing views on desired wildlife numbers.

For me, when there were 20,000 elk in the trench, I wanted to see 30,000. The habitat can support it, if we continue to work at it.

[6point]

The mid range and back country presently has excellent habitat. More than elk can eat. It's the trench that needs continued logging and burning. The Pickering Hills as an example need a better habitat management plan. Neighbouring transitional range in some areas also needs work.

High fencing is a factor.

Back in the day, hunters were able to prepare burn plans, work with MOE and carry them out. Nothing brought hunters together like work 'for' wildlife. Current Gov policy all but took away thinning and burning options using volunteer commitment.

Resident Hunters are presently at odds with GOABC. If hunters push hard for more wildlife/elk in the trench, they will again, find themselves at odds with the ranching community. Historically opposing views on desired wildlife numbers.

For me, when there were 20,000 elk in the trench, I wanted to see 30,000. The habitat can support it, if we continue to work at it.
100% agree
The farmers put their cattle out on the winter range to eat and stomp all of the elks food all summer and well into the fall. And then put up high fences to keep the elk out of their crops...what are they supposed to eat??
Get the cattle off the winter range, create more burns, and stop the albertians from turning it into housing and golf courses!

[Bugle M In]

Do you think that the 3 point season grew bigger bulls? or was it because when we had a 3 point season it was a time when fresh new logging roads where punching their ways into some of the last untouched drainages and hunters could get back into the places that had seen little to no hunting pressure previously and them big bulls where hiding in?

True, that was a reason possibly.
Another reason might have been that some hunters , like myself, don't need to shoot a trophy 6pt, I just want one in the freezer.
So with a 3 pt or better, I assume a lot less 6 pt were harvested.
Biggest problem I remember back than, was all those cow tags being offered, and over time, all I saw were 6 pt bulls, and hardly ever a cow.
The 90's were great for me, a 6 pt every season, and bugle would have them running in.

Now it is different (well, up until the past few years), there were more cows, and the bulls (usually a 6pt) was with them, and we as hunters were forced to take them only, not the Satellites that came in all
the time, which is what most hunters I think would have harvested regardless of size.

But now, the situation is different, the elk just aren't there as they once were.

I never understood the 6pt policy, except that the GO's loved it, as they assumed that now they would have there customers harvest 350+ class bulls.

BUT, now the GO's are complaining that there are no more elk!!!!! forget a 350 class bull, they can't even find Raghorns for their clients......
And that is why the GO's are struggling...their clients don't want to come back!...no repeat business....period!

But before we revise that whole situation, length of season, point restriction, leh ...bla bla bla...

We all need to get the habitat back for the beasts....and protect them from those dogs etc.

Every year, it goes thru my mind to leave the camp fire burning after I leave, just because that seems to be what needs to happen where I hunt.
Don't get me wrong, I would never do that, and I am responsible, but man!, can somebody get the ball rolling and give these animals the habitat they need.

[GoatGuy]

The mid range and back country presently has excellent habitat. More than elk can eat. It's the trench that needs continued logging and burning. The Pickering Hills as an example need a better habitat management plan. Neighbouring transitional range in some areas also needs work.

High fencing is a factor.

Back in the day, hunters were able to prepare burn plans, work with MOE and carry them out. Nothing brought hunters together like work 'for' wildlife. Current Gov policy all but took away thinning and burning options using volunteer commitment.

Resident Hunters are presently at odds with GOABC. If hunters push hard for more wildlife/elk in the trench, they will again, find themselves at odds with the ranching community. Historically opposing views on desired wildlife numbers.

For me, when there were 20,000 elk in the trench, I wanted to see 30,000. The habitat can support it, if we continue to work at it.

http://yahatinda.biology.ualberta.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2013/03/hebblewhite_2006_phd.pdf

One of the papers that is public.

[Fisher-Dude]

So with a 3 pt or better, I assume a lot less 6 pt were harvested.



Correct. Average annual bull harvest is within 15 - 20% of where it was in the 80s and early 90s hey-days, however, all the bulls shot are 6+ points.

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves what effect shooting pretty well every 1.5 - 3.5 year old 6 point has long term on antler size.

[Bugle M In]

Correct. Average annual bull harvest is within 15 - 20% of where it was in the 80s and early 90s hey-days, however, all the bulls shot are 6+ points.

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves what effect shooting pretty well every 1.5 - 3.5 year old 6 point has long term on antler size.

And on a side note, the late 80's and definitely by the early 90's is when the wolf tracks started to show up, atleast where I go.
I never hunted Grizz up there, so I don't know exactly when the hunting of Grizz declined...meaning less permits etc for them...
I suspect that was around that time as well????. ...but I am not certain of this?, so don't quote me as knowledgeable on this point.
IT seems that there where more people hunting them long ago, until there was a cry that they were becoming extinct:roll:

[Whonnock Boy]

Your statement tweaked my interest, so I had a look. Average grizzly harvest in the Kootenays per decade is 76 to 89-43 per year, 90's-46, 00's-40, 10's (only 3 years of stats) 44. 07-12 an average of 50 bears have been harvested by RH's, and there was a few years following the moratorium that had very low harvest but high success rates. Now ya know. ;)


And on a side note, the late 80's and definitely by the early 90's is when the wolf tracks started to show up, atleast where I go.
I never hunted Grizz up there, so I don't know exactly when the hunting of Grizz declined...meaning less permits etc for them...
I suspect that was around that time as well????. ...but I am not certain of this?, so don't quote me as knowledgeable on this point.
IT seems that there where more people hunting them long ago, until there was a cry that they were becoming extinct:roll:

[Bugle M In]

Your statement tweaked my interest, so I had a look. Average grizzly harvest in the Kootenays per decade is 76 to 89-43 per year, 90's-46, 00's-40, 10's (only 3 years of stats) 44. 07-12 an average of 50 bears have been harvested by RH's, and there was a few years following the moratorium that had very low harvest but high success rates. Now ya know. ;)

So, basically harvest rates have been the same...interesting.
All I can say is that I see them a lot more now, and my areas of hunting haven't changed...
Thanks for the info, it now gives some room for thought.
One thing is for certain, if harvest rates have been the same, it sure doesn't mean they are going extinct.

[Husky7mm]

30 years of hunting regulation changes, 30 years of decline.

What's left of the 'remote' areas in the EK is in decline as well. There are very few spots you can get away from hunters, but those places are not doing any better than the heavily hunted areas - in many cases they are worse. The most productive areas from a recruitment perspective are actually right in the trench close to people, and hunters.

Close the hunting season if you want, you'll end up in the exact same place.

Hmmmm..... So liberal seasons and over harvest still have nothing to do with it....

They open up reg 4 general WT on does with a 2 deer limit cause the sex ratios are out of wack( caused by hunting) and there seem to be an abundance of them and with in a few years hunters are like " where did the WT go?!?!"

They open up reg 4 anybuck mule deer cause buck harvest has approached pre die-off level of winter 96-97, ( clearly must mean there are lots of deer) and with in a few short years people are like "where are all the mulie bucks?!??!"

They open up reg 5 gen any buck into mid November and maintain the two buck limited and 2 yrs later people are like " wheres all the mature bucks?!?!!"

They implement a moose harvest across all age groups in reg 7 with general calf season,( a model they know mathematically puts moose in constant slow decline) and they run it till the wheels fall off!! People are like wheres all the moose!?!??"

They give out massive amounts of leh cow elk in reg 4 followed by years of general tags on both cows and spikes and shortly there after people are like " wheres all the facking elk?!???"

In good fun, you have got to be the dumbest smart person around!!!!

[358mag]

Hmmmm..... So liberal seasons and over harvest still have nothing to do with it....

They open up reg 4 general WT on does with a 2 deer limit cause the sex ratios are out of wack( caused by hunting) and there seem to be an abundance of them and with in a few years hunters are like " where did the WT go?!?!"

They open up reg 4 anybuck mule deer cause buck harvest has approached pre die-off level of winter 96-97, ( clearly must mean there are lots of deer) and with in a few short years people are like "where are all the mulie bucks?!??!"

They open up reg 5 gen any buck into mid November and maintain the two buck limited and 2 yrs later people are like " wheres all the mature bucks?!?!!"

They implement a moose harvest across all age groups in reg 7 with general calf season,( a model they know mathematically puts moose in constant slow decline) and they run it till the wheels fall off!! People are like wheres all the moose!?!??"

They give out massive amounts of leh cow elk in reg 4 followed by years of general tags on both cows and spikes and shortly there after people are like " wheres all the facking elk?!???"

In good fun, you have got to be the dumbest smart person around!!!!
To funny but sooo true , but then again the internet experts will ask for the stats + study's on your post Husky ,sometimes they cant see the forest for all the tree ooppss but then again we cut all them down too to give us way more access to the back country too harvest just a few more .http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.png

[BgBlkDg]

So, the decline in the Elk is due to hunters killing too many bulls in the Kootenays? This, does not agree with the info. I have recently received from sources I have good reason to trust and I wonder if perhaps this demonstrates that the time to ban all foreign hunting in Region Four has arrived, as many seem to think.

I think that there are other limiting factors in respect of the decline in population level and given the regrettable increase in human population numbers due to the recent mass immigration of various types, the situation does not look promising.

Time to make some REAL changes and save what we can for BC people.

[roymil]

so the last antlerless mule deer season in region 4 was in the mid 90's. where are the mule deer does now, hunter harvest................. not likely.

[Bugle M In]

Although for most people in BC, if asked, they would say hunting is the reason for the decline, but that is only because that would be obvious in their eyes.
What I do know, for example, is that there are wolves almost right down to the door steps in Cache Creek, and lots of them.
I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that that would ever happen...ever!
We can all see the significant increase in predators everywhere through out the province.
Surely this is one reason for the lack of ungulates.
Also, no one really knows what is going on in the "Unregulated Hunting" Department.
We can all see the development everywhere.
The GOABC screwed themselves as well, if they think the reason they are going out of business is due just to not having enough tags for their clients.
There have been some bad policies, no doubt in my mind, as some state, that have also led to the lack of #'s.
This isn't a simple fix, but I agree with GG on the fact that we need to push the ministry to get more habitat made, and hopefully in the way of Burns.
Also, more emphasis on the predators.
This whole problem isn't just a hunting induced effect, not by a long shot.

[hunter1947]

I myself over the last 10 years have seen more hunters in the mountains then when I hunted back in the past there has been talk on threads in the past regarding we need more recruitment hunters ??? do we really need more ??? its a big vicious circle out there regarding everything all meaning less game animals out there in order to increase game animals first step is to get the predator problem under control before the management can continue on doing other to bring back the prey animals to a stable number.

Can't bring back the prey unless the management controls the predators first would be a waist of time and money my thoughts are that the game management don't have the revenue in order to get the predator population under control ,,just my thoughts on all.

In my travels shed hunting the past 5 months of 2015 I have seen lots of kills cow elk,WT deer,Mule deer I have travelled to lots of regions in the EK put on endless miles of leg work in different areas found out that the WT numbers are at the top then the elk and third are the mule deer I have seen less game animals this year then in the past it might be because we had such a mild winter here in the EK and the game animals moved up to a hi elevation ???.

[BgBlkDg]

This pretty much agrees with the latest info. I have and I agree, we NEED to have a government that funds-staffs a proper F&W dept., but, that will never happen with the demand for grants, etc. by often newcomer groups and tax-cutting favours to big business.

Now, IF, we had 500,000 BC citizen-hunters, who were very aggressive in demanding the pols do the above, we would get what we need and many want.

This, is the conundrum we are now in and I tend to favour recruitment as we older hunters fade into *history*.....

There, COULD be sufficient available game in BC for 500,000 resident, citizen hunters, IF, it was well managed and that is what I would like to see and wish would happen.

[Rackmastr]

I myself over the last 10 years have seen more hunters in the mountains then when I hunted back in the past there has been talk on threads in the past regarding we need more recruitment hunters ??? do we really need more ???

Yes, we really need more IMO

[GoatGuy]

Hmmmm..... So liberal seasons and over harvest still have nothing to do with it....

They open up reg 4 general WT on does with a 2 deer limit cause the sex ratios are out of wack( caused by hunting) and there seem to be an abundance of them and with in a few years hunters are like " where did the WT go?!?!"

They open up reg 4 anybuck mule deer cause buck harvest has approached pre die-off level of winter 96-97, ( clearly must mean there are lots of deer) and with in a few short years people are like "where are all the mulie bucks?!??!"

They open up reg 5 gen any buck into mid November and maintain the two buck limited and 2 yrs later people are like " wheres all the mature bucks?!?!!"

They implement a moose harvest across all age groups in reg 7 with general calf season,( a model they know mathematically puts moose in constant slow decline) and they run it till the wheels fall off!! People are like wheres all the moose!?!??"

They give out massive amounts of leh cow elk in reg 4 followed by years of general tags on both cows and spikes and shortly there after people are like " wheres all the facking elk?!???"

In good fun, you have got to be the dumbest smart person around!!!!

Husky, if you would have read the first post its about elk in the koots. The issue is with migratory herds, the elk that are supposed to spend the summer/fall in the mountains and then come down to winter. These are the same ones that have been on a 6 pts season since the late 90s, with little to no antlerless hunting as it has all been focused on non-migratory elk in the trench. The elk that have been on a 6 pts season the whole time which are in decline.

As always, you're focusing on your beliefs, not science. There's not much a person can discuss when it comes to beliefs.

[J_T]

so the last antlerless mule deer season in region 4 was in the mid 90's. where are the mule deer does now, hunter harvest................. not likely.Lack of habitat for mule deer. Some good mid slope burns will bring an increase in mule deer numbers.

[BgBlkDg]

NO question, we had LOTS of Mulies 50ish years ago, when I started hunting and the many fires from the 1880s to the mid-60s, which we did not have the ability to rapidly suppress, were a large part of WHY they were available in such numbers as there was sufficient habitat.

The predators were also strongly suppressed and far fewer roads, no ATVs and the Mulies flourished.

[Bugle M In]

A fire like the one that hit the Assiniboine Country, 100 years ago ( I think it been that long ago??)/
I see remnants of it still...it must have been huge, but more importantly, it was probably a large reason why the countryside in the day carried lots of elk.
Now...it just all over grown and windfall...
About the end of the 90's all the game trails started to get covered over.
Add in the Windstorm that really messed up the valley a few years back and than throw in that Flooding also a couple years back...and now I hardly recognize the area.
Big fires would be great!!! , Revitalize while not creating more roads.
I don't think the logging outfits will like it or go for it!!??

[Husky7mm]

Husky, if you would have read the first post its about elk in the koots. The issue is with migratory herds, the elk that are supposed to spend the summer/fall in the mountains and then come down to winter. These are the same ones that have been on a 6 pts season since the late 90s, with little to no antlerless hunting as it has all been focused on non-migratory elk in the trench. The elk that have been on a 6 pts season the whole time which are in decline.

As always, you're focusing on your beliefs, not science. There's not much a person can discuss when it comes to beliefs.

The migratory herds for the most part ends up in the trench. I am sure many end up staying there and joining none migratory elk and vica versa. Its there that the cows get hammered and to state the obvious litterally thousands of elk were never born since that type of management was implemented. Thousands of cows that would have made MORE cows and MORE bulls....... And people are wondering where the elk went???
I withnessed herds of hundreds and even sometimes over a thousand elk from mid October and on during the mid 2000's and I saw them slowly deplete. It was managements goal. I saw the dead cows lying in the bush shot during the spike season and the spikes being ground checked during the cow season. I know folks that treated the 1100 m elevation restriction as a very rough guide. When the general cow season was first image implamented there were people ( not just first time hunters) that were hunting cow elk all over the entire country side. I saw this with my own two eyes.
Now I agree that these problems have been created by multiple reasons but the way it went down is the way I am telling it.

Wolves, I dislike them as much or more than the next hunter, but if they are the primary cause than there should be a large increase in incidental kills and at least sightings and I am not seeing it or hearing of it, so really its mostly anecdotal or, and word of mouth.

I am gonna chalk this yet again up to another sustainable hunt ruined by "hunter opportunity".

Ps, folks if you think that a 3 point season is gonna fix your elk problem then do the hunting community a favour and pull out from now on, K.

[BgBlkDg]

Where, exactly were the herds of over a thousand Elk in the Kootenays that you claim to have seen about a decade ago?

I certainly did not see these and I was there quite frequently and have some knowledge of the area.

You seem to have an issue with what you choose to call, "hunter opportunity" and that seems odd to me in a resident hunter......you wouldn't happen to be a GO or an employee of one, now would you?????

[Husky7mm]

This pretty much agrees with the latest info. I have and I agree, we NEED to have a government that funds-staffs a proper F&W dept., but, that will never happen with the demand for grants, etc. by often newcomer groups and tax-cutting favours to big business.

Now, IF, we had 500,000 BC citizen-hunters, who were very aggressive in demanding the pols do the above, we would get what we need and many want.

This, is the conundrum we are now in and I tend to favour recruitment as we older hunters fade into *history*.....

There, COULD be sufficient available game in BC for 500,000 resident, citizen hunters, IF, it was well managed and that is what I would like to see and wish would happen.

There is not inventory for 500000 hunters, I would suggest people are going to have to learn to be happy with one animal or spliting a large animal, cause inventories are being challenged all over the province. I would also suggest taking up waterfowl, tons of oportunity there.

[BgBlkDg]

I would suggest that there COULD very well BE sufficient populations of game animals for a vastly increased BC citizen-resident hunting population. This, would entail, as I have posted, serious management and political changes here, but, it can and, IMO, should be done.

The FIRST change to be made is an absolute, permanent ban on ALL foreign hunting, particularly the horde of Yankees who come to massacre OUR game for use as "braggin' " objects. NO more Yankees, NO more GOABC and BC for Canadian citizen hunters, ONLY.

Simple, really and the coming "wave of the future".

[Husky7mm]

Where, exactly were the herds of over a thousand Elk in the Kootenays that you claim to have seen about a decade ago?

I certainly did not see these and I was there quite frequently and have some knowledge of the area.

You seem to have an issue with what you choose to call, "hunter opportunity" and that seems odd to me in a resident hunter......you wouldn't happen to be a GO or an employee of one, now would you?????

I saw elk herds of over a 1000 head between wolf creek and bummers flats and then near peckhems lake and horse shoe. Closer to 8-9 years ago than 5. Was quite the sight!!

You should be a memeber for more than a few months before you go around accusing people of hiding something, or are you someones multiple personality or on your second or third time round???? Haha

[budismyhorse]

husky..... We can have it all.... Big bulls... Big herds... Liberal seasons ...whatever...

with effective habitat management and significant predator control.

Your rant about declines..... In the kootenays... The most significant offender on Elk/mulies/wt's are predators.... Not hunters...... If we control the FIVE predators that are at high populations levels right now... We can have it all.

so quite fighting Jesse and go shoot a black bear.

[bearvalley]

Now, IF, we had 500,000 BC citizen-hunters, who were very aggressive in demanding the pols do the above, we would get what we need and many want.

This, is the conundrum we are now in and I tend to favour recruitment as we older hunters fade into *history*.....

There, COULD be sufficient available game in BC for 500,000 resident, citizen hunters, IF, it was well managed and that is what I would like to see and wish would happen.

LMAO. If we, the 102,000 resident hunters of BC can not be satisfied with the hunting oppurtunities we have today I can just hear it when there's 500,000.
I definitely would be willing to hear your management plan to keep that amount of resident hunters happy. But then I guess it's really not about the harvest of an animal, more so about the opportunity.
Great idea, get rid of the 4,500 or so non BC resident hunters and recruit 398,000 from right here. Lol.

[BgBlkDg]

We WILL get rid of the vile GOABC, totally and much sooner than their minions who post here seem to think will happen.

We WILL end foreign trophy slaughtering here in BC, no matter WHAT that takes, soon, very soon and to Hell with these so-called businesses that rape our wildlife and pollute our hunting heritage with the braggadocio of the typical Yankee "hunter".

Husky, quite the attempt to avoid a simple enquiry, eh, seems that you are unwilling to post honest replies to honest queries.......

What is your outfit, or, are you ashamed of your status?

[Fisher-Dude]

I myself over the last 10 years have seen more hunters in the mountains then when I hunted back in the past


See what happens when you post videos of your hunts online! :smile:

Here are the number of elk hunters where you hunt.

Average number of elk hunters in H47's MU:

1983 - 1992 was 289
1993 - 2002 was 274
2003 - 2012 was 260

It appears that there's a steady decline in elk hunters near your camp, Wayne!

[Fisher-Dude]

LMAO. If we, the 102,000 resident hunters of BC can not be satisfied with the hunting oppurtunities we have today I can just hear it when there's 500,000.
I definitely would be willing to hear your management plan to keep that amount of resident hunters happy. But then I guess it's really not about the harvest of an animal, more so about the opportunity.
Great idea, get rid of the 4,500 or so non BC resident hunters and recruit 398,000 from right here. Lol.

Washington: 219,000 hunters, 184,666 km2
Montana: 145,000 hunters, 380,837 km2
Idaho: 246,000 hunters, 216,445 km2

BC: 102,000 hunters, 947,800 km2

[Fisher-Dude]

Wolves, I dislike them as much or more than the next hunter, but if they are the primary cause than there should be a large increase in incidental kills and at least sightings and I am not seeing it or hearing of it, so really its mostly anecdotal or, and word of mouth.



You don't even live there dude. So it goes without saying that you're not seeing any evidence of wolves.

[bearvalley]

Washington: 219,000 hunters, 184,666 km2
Montana: 145,000 hunters, 380,837 km2
Idaho: 246,000 hunters, 216,445 km2

BC: 102,000 hunters, 947,800 km2

While your at it post up the number of non resident hunting licenses issued in those 3 states. It would be an interesting comparison of jurisdictions.
How do you think their opportunities are?

[Fisher-Dude]

While your at it post up the number of non resident hunting licenses issued in those 3 states. It would be an interesting comparison of jurisdictions.
How do you think their opportunities are?

There's a large number of "non-resident" hunters in individual US states, because they are virtually all US citizens hunting in other states. And, the best part is, they don't require a guide-outfitter to haul their asses around, and can hunt as "non-residents" in do-it-yourself hunts.

That's what we need here in BC, too. Ten percent of allocated species for other Canadians who can hunt here after being successfully drawn. 90% of allocated species go to BC residents.

Glad you brought it up.

[GoatGuy]

Washington: 219,000 hunters, 184,666 km2
Montana: 145,000 hunters, 380,837 km2
Idaho: 246,000 hunters, 216,445 km2

BC: 102,000 hunters, 947,800 km2

The number of hunters in Montana looks low to me.

[Fisher-Dude]

The number of hunters in Montana looks low to me.

It's correct. Searches yield 145,000 - 150,000.

[bearvalley]

There's a large number of "non-resident" hunters in individual US states, because they are virtually all US citizens hunting in other states. And, the best part is, they don't require a guide-outfitter to haul their asses around, and can hunt as "non-residents" in do-it-yourself hunts.

That's what we need here in BC, too. Ten percent of allocated species for other Canadians who can hunt here after being successfully drawn. 90% of allocated species go to BC residents.

Glad you brought it up.
Good plan FD. Let's throw out what we have and adopt the US system of landowner tags, over the counter and draw tags to both residents and non resident. While we're at it lets up the hunter recruitment by another 300%.
Something tells me you'll be wishing to have back what we have today if we ever go that route.

[BgBlkDg]

You GOs KNOW that the time for your kind is OVER and are whinging as you go down....love it, it is WELL deserved!!!

[Surrey Boy]

You GOs KNOW that the time for your kind is OVER and are whinging as you go down....love it, it is WELL deserved!!!

Pot, kettle, anyone?

[Jed]

BgBlkDoogie is just a Troll

[Fisher-Dude]

BgBlkDoogie is just a Troll

Well, he isn't the President of GOABC, and you'd know that, right? ;)

[Jed]

Well, he isn't the President of GOABC, and you'd know that, right? ;)

FD you need to put your investigative skills to better use because they definitely are not working very well here

[Fisher-Dude]

FD you need to put your investigative skills to better use because they definitely are not working very well here

They are working just fine. At least we know which side of the family you're from.

It's all good, I enjoy BBD's posts as he gives another view of these allocation battles, and his candid posts are appreciated.

[Jed]

From the right side that's for sure :smile:

[BgBlkDg]

Pot, kettle, anyone?


You recently called my late father ...an Aryan..., a term with Nazi connotations; this was a man who VOLUNTEERED at age 40+ to serve in Canadas army in *Active Overseas Service* in WWII, as his older cousin did in WWI; they were born in Vancouver, 1892 and Grand Forks, BC, in 1904.

You seem determined to harass me here and insult my family, so, tell me something.

WHAT did YOUR immediate ancestors do in 1914-19 when more than 20 of mine, all CANADIANS, served in Flanders in the C.E.F.

WHAT did they do in 1939-45, when almost as many of my family served, volunteers all, born here, to defeat Nazism.

Do you KNOW that many Mennonites and fellow cultists of German extraction actually asked the then British-Canadian government for haven here in Canada and THEN, in these wars, strongly supported the very Germans who supposedly drove them into exile, INCLUDING Hitlers monstrous goons.

This, IS factual history and they also refused to fight for Canada, when we had given them shelter.

You have a huge beard, your ignorance exceeds its size.

[Surrey Boy]

LOL!!!

Thanks for coming back.

[Bugle M In]

I can't believe how far off track these threads become....
Disappointing ...
I know we can agree that some of us will disagree at times, that's normal, but to lose total sight of the problem and ways to help....
Scary, to think that we can't even find ways to make things for the better thru open discussions.
Meanwhile, the elk and moose keep declining.
If we keep this up, my daughter will never get the opportunity to hunt, especially not her children one day, if this is the best we can do.
And here, my biggest concern was my failing health, and how in the hell I was going to be able to take her and show her all that I have learned along the way.
I don't care if someone disagrees with me whether it should be 6 pt or 3 pt or with what weapon.
But lets just look at what has worked is not working or what made no difference what so ever in the past and what is changing...for better or worse.

I don't think changing to a 6 pt made any difference.
I don't think cow elk should be open, regardless of where they are located, not for a long time in the future.
I think wolves need to be taken out, the entire pack, in every so many watersheds.
I think more opportunity for Grizz hunting, especially for the calves.
Don't forget the cougars either.
I cant see how taking out Predators can be a negative?
Deactivating roads is a must, since logging seems to be the only way we are creating any type of habitat ( although elk seems to be still declining even in the areas where roads are deactivated?),
so I can't say if that is really helping....but it can't hurt!
And with all this logging that has happened, maybe large fires are the only option left available to try to bring back viable habitat for elk, as long as several large areas are done through out R4, not just
one burn.
I think these burns should be done way back in the high country and, as someone stated, also include the mid country levels as well.
I have no idea how we regain winter habitat, where condos and golf courses stand now, unless someone we get land put aside, like they did in the LM years ago for farming called the AGR.
Having said that though, the Liberals have managed to give that away too!!
Thus, I think the Liberals have to go, as they are just so far for Privatization, it scares me, at least when it comes to are province and natural resources.

There said my part....that's all I ever wanted to do, so if it takes my vote or membership to make these changes...I will.

[LBM]

I can't believe how far off track these threads become....
Disappointing ...
I know we can agree that some of us will disagree at times, that's normal, but to lose total sight of the problem and ways to help....
Scary, to think that we can't even find ways to make things for the better thru open discussions.
Meanwhile, the elk and moose keep declining.
If we keep this up, my daughter will never get the opportunity to hunt, especially not her children one day, if this is the best we can do.
And here, my biggest concern was my failing health, and how in the hell I was going to be able to take her and show her all that I have learned along the way.
I don't care if someone disagrees with me whether it should be 6 pt or 3 pt or with what weapon.
But lets just look at what has worked is not working or what made no difference what so ever in the past and what is changing...for better or worse.

I don't think changing to a 6 pt made any difference.
I don't think cow elk should be open, regardless of where they are located, not for a long time in the future.
I think wolves need to be taken out, the entire pack, in every so many watersheds.
I think more opportunity for Grizz hunting, especially for the calves.
Don't forget the cougars either.
I cant see how taking out Predators can be a negative?
Deactivating roads is a must, since logging seems to be the only way we are creating any type of habitat ( although elk seems to be still declining even in the areas where roads are deactivated?),
so I can't say if that is really helping....but it can't hurt!
And with all this logging that has happened, maybe large fires are the only option left available to try to bring back viable habitat for elk, as long as several large areas are done through out R4, not just
one burn.
I think these burns should be done way back in the high country and, as someone stated, also include the mid country levels as well.
I have no idea how we regain winter habitat, where condos and golf courses stand now, unless someone we get land put aside, like they did in the LM years ago for farming called the AGR.
Having said that though, the Liberals have managed to give that away too!!
Thus, I think the Liberals have to go, as they are just so far for Privatization, it scares me, at least when it comes to are province and natural resources.

There said my part....that's all I ever wanted to do, so if it takes my vote or membership to make these changes...I will.

Cougars are not a problem, they are on the decline in many areas of Region 4, heck there study on this thread even shows disease killed
more of there studied calves.

[Fisher-Dude]

We have a cougar problem that needs to be dealt with. From Jamieson:


Cougar
• Catch and release dog chase
hunting.
• Recent increase in quotas.
• We need to figure out how to
suppress the cougar population until
mule deer populations recover.
Cougar
• We need to establish male and
female quotas.
• We also need to convince cat hunters
to kill more cats and accept a
reduction in cat numbers over the
short term, until deer numbers
recover.

[Bugle M In]

Each season for the past 6 years, I've been seeing Cougars, when Elk hunting, only saw 1 print in all the years before.
In Sept 2013, I even had a cougar think I was a cow Elk, and came into 7-8 yards of me before he realized what I was.
And as for the Wolves, no, I haven't run into too many kills that were made by them in September, but, all their scat is full of either deer or elk hair, depending on which pile you find.
And, this isn't because they found the kill site from a hunter and what was left behind.
I say this, because the areas in which I hunt, don't see much hunting pressure, and I have a good relation with the other group of hunters that do go there on a weekly basis, as well as the outfitter,
and we get a pretty good idea of who has been successful or not...and if so, where.
So, the wolves don't seem to need a hunters help to stay fed through out the summer months.
If anything, I find a lot of winter kill, every season now, and the 6 pt racks are still laying there as well.
I never saw winter kills before, and I have spent a lot of seasons up there, and my father long before me.
The area I hunt, and lack of sign, has really made me consider looking elsewhere this upcoming season, but it doesn't sound like all that many other places are all that promising as well right now.
That was why I responded to the original post, which was asking about current elk in the "Kootenays" ( there, I said bgblkdg).
I do know that the outfitter has not hunted any bears for 5 or 6 years now, (he wants them to be trophy sized for his clients) and from all the bears around...it shows!!
I think I will be shooting a trophy class sized black bear this fall, but wish I could put in for a Grizz tag.
Also, another side note, the outfitter has asked the trapper to trap the wolves but the trapper refuses!!????
I find this hard to believe, but that is what I have been told,.....I'll take his word for now, until I find out otherwise.
But, again there are lots of wolves around this watershed for sure.
So, I ask myself...are all the things being done to help the current situation, in order to bring back elk etc.
I think not.
And a few things, such as making it 6 pt did not make a difference.
Does keeping it 6 pt help???, It might to a small degree, maybe, but I am fairly certain that after being in existence for over 15 - 20 years now....it hasn't done a much!!!!!
So, what's next, is the question to ask and ponder....and more importantly....put into effect.

[Sitkaspruce]

You GOs KNOW that the time for your kind is OVER and are whinging as you go down....love it, it is WELL deserved!!!


Pot, kettle, anyone?


You recently called my late father ...an Aryan..., a term with Nazi connotations; this was a man who VOLUNTEERED at age 40+ to serve in Canadas army in *Active Overseas Service* in WWII, as his older cousin did in WWI; they were born in Vancouver, 1892 and Grand Forks, BC, in 1904.

You seem determined to harass me here and insult my family, so, tell me something.

WHAT did YOUR immediate ancestors do in 1914-19 when more than 20 of mine, all CANADIANS, served in Flanders in the C.E.F.

WHAT did they do in 1939-45, when almost as many of my family served, volunteers all, born here, to defeat Nazism.

Do you KNOW that many Mennonites and fellow cultists of German extraction actually asked the then British-Canadian government for haven here in Canada and THEN, in these wars, strongly supported the very Germans who supposedly drove them into exile, INCLUDING Hitlers monstrous goons.

This, IS factual history and they also refused to fight for Canada, when we had given them shelter.

You have a huge beard, your ignorance exceeds its size.


LOL!!!

Thanks for coming back.

You guys need to get a room........

how about you start your own love nest post so we can keep the originals on track.

It can be a rolling one, every time one of you feels the need to stroke the other, jump on your post and stoke away......

Leave the original posts to what they are.

Thanks

Cheers

SS

PS sorry for the derail....:grin:

[Husky7mm]

We WILL get rid of the vile GOABC, totally and much sooner than their minions who post here seem to think will happen.

We WILL end foreign trophy slaughtering here in BC, no matter WHAT that takes, soon, very soon and to Hell with these so-called businesses that rape our wildlife and pollute our hunting heritage with the braggadocio of the typical Yankee "hunter".

Husky, quite the attempt to avoid a simple enquiry, eh, seems that you are unwilling to post honest replies to honest queries.......

What is your outfit, or, are you ashamed of your status?

Devilbear you just cant stay away can you. I would like to tell you where to go but you'll get there on your own you grumpy old cur. Haha

ps not an outfitter, kind regards

[BgBlkDg]

1. I did not start the interpersonal slagging here and I have tried to avoid it; however, I WILL NOT tolerate some POS insulting the memory of my late father or any other Canadian veteran. I am well aware that many here are immigrants, foreigners and even Yankees, not to mention GOs, however, such characters do not have the right to slag veterans.

2. Funny, how some can call others names such as ...cur... and thereby show just how low they are; it seems to me that such types are the real problem here in derailing any thread about anything worthwhile.

3. Much of what is posted here on wildlife-environmental management comes from those whose actual experience of, for example, the Kootenays, is less than that of my seventh-generation nephew in Nelson, which is WHY so little is accomplished here.

Sorry, for the derailment, do continue.

[Husky7mm]

You don't even live there dude. So it goes without saying that you're not seeing any evidence of wolves.

You never listened to me when I did, lol
What current first hand knowledge do you have of the kootenys aside from a once a year visit?
Where are the locals in this thread?

Anyways I have my ear to the ground as I hope to return one day. I have family and friends there that are avid hunters. I have not been gone all that long and when I was there I spent lot more time in the bush than a part-time biologist. I am glad however that predator problem has been identified and agreed upon.

[Husky7mm]

Each season for the past 6 years, I've been seeing Cougars, when Elk hunting, only saw 1 print in all the years before.
In Sept 2013, I even had a cougar think I was a cow Elk, and came into 7-8 yards of me before he realized what I was.
And as for the Wolves, no, I haven't run into too many kills that were made by them in September, but, all their scat is full of either deer or elk hair, depending on which pile you find.
And, this isn't because they found the kill site from a hunter and what was left behind.
I say this, because the areas in which I hunt, don't see much hunting pressure, and I have a good relation with the other group of hunters that do go there on a weekly basis, as well as the outfitter,
and we get a pretty good idea of who has been successful or not...and if so, where.
So, the wolves don't seem to need a hunters help to stay fed through out the summer months.
If anything, I find a lot of winter kill, every season now, and the 6 pt racks are still laying there as well.
I never saw winter kills before, and I have spent a lot of seasons up there, and my father long before me.
The area I hunt, and lack of sign, has really made me consider looking elsewhere this upcoming season, but it doesn't sound like all that many other places are all that promising as well right now.
That was why I responded to the original post, which was asking about current elk in the "Kootenays" ( there, I said bgblkdg).
I do know that the outfitter has not hunted any bears for 5 or 6 years now, (he wants them to be trophy sized for his clients) and from all the bears around...it shows!!
I think I will be shooting a trophy class sized black bear this fall, but wish I could put in for a Grizz tag.
Also, another side note, the outfitter has asked the trapper to trap the wolves but the trapper refuses!!????
I find this hard to believe, but that is what I have been told,.....I'll take his word for now, until I find out otherwise.
But, again there are lots of wolves around this watershed for sure.
So, I ask myself...are all the things being done to help the current situation, in order to bring back elk etc.
I think not.
And a few things, such as making it 6 pt did not make a difference.
Does keeping it 6 pt help???, It might to a small degree, maybe, but I am fairly certain that after being in existence for over 15 - 20 years now....it hasn't done a much!!!!!
So, what's next, is the question to ask and ponder....and more importantly....put into effect.

I would say the 6 point season accomplished plenty as far as bull recruitment goes. Before the large amounts of leh cow and then gos cow there were so many elk that a reduction was called. There where lots of cows and lots of bulls too. Ranchers dont like that many elk and biologists were worried about capacity. There were elk literally everywhere. To state the obvious a reduction on cows is a reduction on bulls too, right. To reduced the elk, ( and the whitetails) and not the predators that spiked right after the elk and deer is a problem, and your going to feel it.

I now live and hunt in Alberta in a three point zone with lots of cow tags and seeing bulls or elk for that matter is a tough go outside of private farmland, they are pressured hard and live a great portion of the year nocturnal. Finding sheds off a 5 point bull is a reason for celebrating so I know the bull recruitment is lower than in a 6 point zone.

You say your finding winter kills of elk, does that mean your hunting winter range as I would be surprised that it is not heavily hunted. Elk are very tough animals and they can live in deep snow and even seem to take up browsing if need be, they don't give up easy. When was the last bad winter in the kootenays? I hazard a guess you are finding predator kills or wounded/lost animals.

[Bugle M In]

The area has been under road closure since the inception of road closures began, which basically runs from the kootenay river to the alberta border.
So, lots of space to keep the elk safe from lots of traffic....there are still some that go in on horses, but....a lot come out vey disappointed in the lack of sign.
The area is potentially a winter range...ALTHOUGH, I suspect it is an area where elk will winter IF the winter is mild.
I think they head further down on years of severe winter conditions.
I know the snow...when we get it...can get to 10 ft deep where I hunt....but as stated...when severe.
The area is definitely a "breeding locale", so to speak...as the elk always seem to gather there ...always around the same time.
Other who work the country, like loggers, always say they see very little all summer and than, suddenly out of no where, there they are, right at he the beginning of Sept.

The Winterkill's to look like they are predator induced, but...I wasn't standing there when it happen, BUT, the kills always seem to be right out in the open areas....never inside the timber/game trails.
Usually, IMO, when I suspect death from starvation, you find the bones near the base of trees, as if the animals bedded one last time.???? Just my opinion.

I have never seen anything good come from the Cow Tags...I understand some peoples reasoning behind it, that in theory, it has some validity, BUT,
I have never seen a Positive Outcome from it....never.
Removing the Cows, has always caused the Elk #'s to decline way to far...IMO.

For a while, I thought the elk #'s were starting to climb...early 2000's.
Not as many elk leh anymore, and the results were noticeable.
I was starting to see bulls with 20+ cows ( like the good ol days of the late 50's / early 60's).
And then Bam...just gone in course of a few years, and, there is plenty of logging that created good feed from several years past....so go figure.??

[Grolar]

who does/looks over the elk management plan that was taking in 2010-2014......has it done anything?
would shorting the elk season help?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

who does/looks over the elk management plan that was taking in 2010-2014......has it done anything?
would shorting the elk season help?

Shortening the elk season would help if the four legged hunters could read.

[J_T]

I agree with some of the posters here, regarding predator and habitat management. We need more of both. I think it’s also important to consider perhaps some intangibles. I would like to throw this theory out for consideration. We seem to talk about back country elk and front country elk as almost distinct species. And, many of their mannerisms and habits are somewhat different. Like their instinct to head to the high country or remain in the low country.

There are predators, cougars, wolves, black bears, grizzly, coyotes, vehicles and trains that pose a threat to low land elk. For me, I observe the most predators in the transitional range. Over the past few years there has been specific targeting (using hunters and more liberal GOS seasons) of female elk in the front country. This was largely to appease the ranching community and reduce overall elk numbers in the agricultural areas. From Invermere to the USA border the population reduction was targeted at 2/3’s. And I think most counts and most observations would confirm, we successfully reduced elk numbers from about 14,000 to about 5,000. Personally, I’d like to get on with creating more habitat and growing more elk. If we compare integral parts of this land with other areas, say in the states, we should be able to support 30,000 elk. I believe, to have more elk, we need more substantive transitional range.

I see agricultural elk as the spawning grounds. If we target front country elk, and we reduce those numbers, the numbers are somewhat replenished by back country elk, who arrive in the wintering grounds and may choose to stay come spring. If that bull that kicked him out last year is gone, and food, water and females are plentiful, then why leave? Elk are a path of least resistance type animal and if favoured, Elk will change their habits. If we maintain liberal female seasons on the front country, we will have an effect on backcountry populations.


When we say, our migratory elk are declining, I would propose it’s because it is in proportion to the reduction of front country elk numbers. More elk in the front country supports more elk migrating out in search of everything they require.

Most game studies and hunter observations in the area reveal that there are pockets where there are a lot of wolves, or cougars, or bears, but there are also slopes, large areas, that do not have high populations of these predators. My personal observations would confirm that.

Lastly, I want to acknowledge a comment by Dewey. If you are from the Kootenay, you never say, “Koots”, or “Koota” (what is that?). You say Kootenay. Period.

[BgBlkDg]

One of the best posts I have ever read on HBC, BUT, the real issue IS political as we can never seem to convince government to value wildlife as they do ranching, etc.

The older form was Kootenay and it is also American, especially from Idaho; we always said the grammatically incorrect plural form, but, the EK usage may differ.

[Husky7mm]

I agree with some of the posters here, regarding predator and habitat management. We need more of both. I think it’s also important to consider perhaps some intangibles. I would like to throw this theory out for consideration. We seem to talk about back country elk and front country elk as almost distinct species. And, many of their mannerisms and habits are somewhat different. Like their instinct to head to the high country or remain in the low country.

There are predators, cougars, wolves, black bears, grizzly, coyotes, vehicles and trains that pose a threat to low land elk. For me, I observe the most predators in the transitional range. Over the past few years there has been specific targeting (using hunters and more liberal GOS seasons) of female elk in the front country. This was largely to appease the ranching community and reduce overall elk numbers in the agricultural areas. From Invermere to the USA border the population reduction was targeted at 2/3’s. And I think most counts and most observations would confirm, we successfully reduced elk numbers from about 14,000 to about 5,000. Personally, I’d like to get on with creating more habitat and growing more elk. If we compare integral parts of this land with other areas, say in the states, we should be able to support 30,000 elk. I believe, to have more elk, we need more substantive transitional range.

I see agricultural elk as the spawning grounds. If we target front country elk, and we reduce those numbers, the numbers are somewhat replenished by back country elk, who arrive in the wintering grounds and may choose to stay come spring. If that bull that kicked him out last year is gone, and food, water and females are plentiful, then why leave? Elk are a path of least resistance type animal and if favoured, Elk will change their habits. If we maintain liberal female seasons on the front country, we will have an effect on backcountry populations.


When we say, our migratory elk are declining, I would propose it’s because it is in proportion to the reduction of front country elk numbers. More elk in the front country supports more elk migrating out in search of everything they require.

Most game studies and hunter observations in the area reveal that there are pockets where there are a lot of wolves, or cougars, or bears, but there are also slopes, large areas, that do not have high populations of these predators. My personal observations would confirm that.

Lastly, I want to acknowledge a comment by Dewey. If you are from the Kootenay, you never say, “Koots”, or “Koota” (what is that?). You say Kootenay. Period.

What JT said!!!! I would also like to remind many that there have been fires in recent years, also selective logging and thinning projects all in the front country. Some seem to believe the habitat is soooo degraded that it can't support more elk or the elk that are there.

[Husky7mm]

One of the best posts I have ever read on HBC, BUT, the real issue IS political as we can never seem to convince government to value wildlife as they do ranching, etc.

The older form was Kootenay and it is also American, especially from Idaho; we always said the grammatically incorrect plural form, but, the EK usage may differ.

IIRC the American way to say and spell it is kootenai, they also spell yhak different, and in case people didnt know some "Canadian" elk have duel citizenship, which can also effect the population. Food for thought.

[J_T]

I love the American spelling of Koot-e-nay. What matters most is how it is pronounced.

[Fisher-Dude]

When we say, our migratory elk are declining, I would propose it’s because it is in proportion to the reduction of front country elk numbers. More elk in the front country supports more elk migrating out in search of everything they require.


That's not what the actual (vs your anecdotal) research says.

Backcountry numbers are declining while front country numbers are increasing.

Jamieson:

Where are we at?
• Elk herds are in decline in areas where
we want them (in the mountains).
• Elk herds are increasing in areas where
we don’t want them (on ranchlands and
in built up areas).
• The rates of recruitment in each of these
herd types are working against us.

Importantly:

• The impact is via recruitment
loss, not the killing of adults.

[BgBlkDg]

It was/is originally Cotenneh, Kutenai and Cootenay(i) circa early 19thC.

It is NEVER ...duel... citizenship, it is DUAL.....

Fodder for contemplation, indeed............ ;)

[rgn5hunt]

Is it my imagination or do the Western US State ranchers Co exist with healthy elk herds?

[J_T]

Well whatever. Nail me to a cross for thinking outside the box. I'm only raising questions based on my own observations. I'm not saying I'm a biologist.
That's not what the actual (vs your anecdotal) research says.

Backcountry numbers are declining while front country numbers are increasing.

Jamieson:

Where are we at?
• Elk herds are in decline in areas where
we want them (in the mountains). But not in all areas in the back country. Why don't you want elk in the trench? I do. I propose, higher and increasing elk in the trench ensures recruitment to the backcountry.
• Elk herds are increasing in areas where
we don’t want them (on ranchlands and
in built up areas). I would question that. Ask Tara. Populations in the trench have been reduced substantially due to liberal female targeted GOS and predation. FYI, I want more elk in the trench. Lots more. My apologies to the ranchers, but I think we can have balance, and more elk. We need to build up our transitional range.
• The rates of recruitment in each of these
herd types are working against us. Do you really believe that GOS cow seasons doesn't have an impact on populations?

Importantly:

• The impact is via recruitment
loss, not the killing of adults.

[bearvalley]

Is it my imagination or do the Western US State ranchers Co exist with healthy elk herds?
Western states US ranchers get what are called "landowner tags". They also have programs such as "Ranching for Wildlife".
Co existence is created by $$$$$

[budismyhorse]

Many of you don't seem to know, or want to acknowledge, the elk pop in the trench was purposefully dragged down by the MOE in order to appease the ranching community, namely one very loud individual. This person still exists and therefore will never allow more elk to populate the trench. PERIOD!

we need to pave the way to the backcountry through habitat enhancement and pred reduction in the backcountry.

They quit that country for a reason. Until that reason goes away we are fighting a losing battle arguing about increasing elk numbers in the transition or trench.... "whose name shall not be spoken" will never allow it.

JT.... Let's get together one day for a coffee.... I'd like to bend your ear off line.

[GoatGuy]

Many of you don't seem to know, or want to acknowledge, the elk pop in the trench was purposefully dragged down by the MOE in order to appease the ranching community, namely one very loud individual. This person still exists and therefore will never allow more elk to populate the trench. PERIOD!

we need to pave the way to the backcountry through habitat enhancement and pred reduction in the backcountry.

They quit that country for a reason. Until that reason goes away we are fighting a losing battle arguing about increasing elk numbers in the transition or trench.... "whose name shall not be spoken" will never allow it.

JT.... Let's get together one day for a coffee.... I'd like to bend your ear off line.

The 'trench' and the low elevation hills should be used for winter range, not 12 months/year range.......

Regardless of that one person, part of the 'ticked off rancher' is the elk that live on ag land all year - the homesteaders. A friend who recently passed had been feeding over 200 elk on his and his neighbours land for the last 5 years. Good thing he didn't need the money cause if he did there would have been a pile of unlicensed harvest.

Life would be much easier for us all if those elk showed up in November and started to leave in May like they used to....... and are supposed to.

[rgn5hunt]

Living in the Cariboo Region there are Elk around Quesnel and plenty of habitat all over the Region. There could be elk here if there was a plan to Co exist. The big issues are problems around hay feeding stations and fence maintenance. It would be nice to see some funding to help with fencing if it would help build wildlife.

[J_T]

The 'trench' and the low elevation hills should be used for winter range, not 12 months/year range.......

Regardless of that one person, part of the 'ticked off rancher' is the elk that live on ag land all year - the homesteaders. A friend who recently passed had been feeding over 200 elk on his and his neighbours land for the last 5 years. Good thing he didn't need the money cause if he did there would have been a pile of unlicensed harvest.

Life would be much easier for us all if those elk showed up in November and started to leave in May like they used to....... and are supposed to.
"Should be" and "Will be" are two different things. We don't control where Elk choose to live. The agricultural zone is a wonderful place for an elk to live. (Accept for the houses, roads, rails, high fences, domestic dogs, photographers, cows, coyotes, grizzlies, turkeys, black bears and cougars) Why would I want to move to the high country, if I have everything in the trench? If we're asking that question, some of us have some ideas. We don't do it by killing all elk that are defined as homesteader. The year prior to the cow GOS, we had over 500 on record in one field. Each year, Ministry counts saw that diminish until we were counting less than 100.

FYI, the migratory elk show up on October 21st. Not November. I propose the solution is, enhanced transitional range, progressive transitional range habitat enhancement out of the major drainages. I've talked to Ranchers and Foresters. There is a plan. There just isn't the will to make it happen. In some drainages (Wildhorse as an example) there is some great logging going on in the transitional range. What we need, are incentives to keep the elk there a bit longer. Keep them off the winter range, and in the spring an incentive to get them back up there.

[Fisher-Dude]

Why would I want to move to the high country, if I have everything in the trench?

Because you're a wild elk that doesn't want to be around human activity.

Unfortunately, you've accepted the Trench option because of all the snapping fangs where you used to live. It's easier to shit-kick a border collie than his much larger ancestor.

[bearvalley]

Living in the Cariboo Region there are Elk around Quesnel and plenty of habitat all over the Region. There could be elk here if there was a plan to Co exist. The big issues are problems around hay feeding stations and fence maintenance. It would be nice to see some funding to help with fencing if it would help build wildlife.
There is a recent program in place to provide stack yard fencing to keep elk out of winter feed storage in the Quesnel area. That's only a solution to a small portion of the issue. Ranchers are in the business of marketing grass, whether it's through selling it as hay, through a cow, a horse or a goat. The lost feed they never get to harvest is the real problem.
What was needed in the Caribou Region was a transitional zone to pull these elk out of their sanctuary on ag land. The winow of opportunity was here with the mountain pine beetle logging. Some of the newly logged blocks should have been put to forages as was suggested. Instead it was carry on down the same old path of log, replant trees, herbicide spray to cut down plant growth that competes with evergreens and all involved wipe their hands of the block.
Short term some of these replanted cut blocks will support elk, as they mature and the tree canopy closes in the elk will move back to the ag land.
To maintain a consistent elk herd in a ranching environment it's going to take some serious financial outlay. The way it's stands now, ranchers are subsidizing wildlife for the public.
We can deal with predators ( and I do believe that is coming ) but if we want the abundant herds of elk, deer and moose we all dream of we had better figure out how to feed them. JMO

[rgn5hunt]

It is a complex problem. Have to point out that the most productive private fields have standard height fences to keep cows out and often they are out on crown land. It would help if the top producing private fields had an upgrade in fencing to keep the wildlife out as well.I think in the summer the crown range has plenty of forage for cattle and elk. The trick would be to upgrade fence heights and gates. As far as winter food goes, I don't know how many elk the land would support but I'm sure they would browse on young aspen and what ever else is available.

[aggiehunter]

The notion that a portion of the Elk herd did not live in the trench all year long centuries ago is not true......

[Ourea]

Something to ponder......
An area that I elk hunted for years is in a very remote and isolated location.
It took us years to grub hoe and cut our way in to access truly amazing elk habitat.
We used lamas for the first while upgrading to mules once the trail systems were better established.
Four large drainages, numerous hung valleys.
The area would cover aprox a 10 by 10 mile chunk of country.
It is the best elk habitat in the region with next to no hunting pressure.
A few bulls get "scratched" on the outskirts of this area.
It is too far back to backpack hunt.

Never seen evidence of a hunting camp, piece of rope....nothing.
We are the only ones stupid enough to spend years building the infrastructure to get those sure footed mules in.
Almost got them killed a few times due the treacherous nature of the country.

Although extremely tough, the elk hunting opportunities were incredible.
Laying in camp listening to numerous bulls scream all night....it was elk hunting heaven.
Not uncommon to see 8 or 9 bulls in a day when the rut was in full swing.
Cow herds averaged 6 to 8 animals and were throughout the drainage systems.

I gave up on the area two years ago.
To even see a bull was becoming a stretch....next to no cows.
Elk were not seen out on the lush slides anymore.
The few elk we did say were way up top in the in the thick berry bush.
That was never the case when elk numbers were strong in there.

THERE ARE....
- zero roads
- zero access
- zero logging
- as close to zero hunting pressure as it gets

Yet, elk are barely present where they were once thrived.
Not difficult to see what happened.

All the human impact variables are not present in this scenario.
What happened to the elk?
Disease? Definitely not.
About the only variable left on the list of suspects is predators.
And yes, the quickly growing wolf presence there coincided with the disappearance of the elk.

No regulation "6 point this" or "bow season that" has anything to do with the problem.
Absolutely zero.

Thinking that regulation can or will fix the problem is like thinking baptizing your cat will make a difference.

[bearvalley]

Well stated, Ourea.
Our present #1 flaw in wildlife population growth is lack of predator control.

[BgBlkDg]

Ourea's comments mirror what I was told by the guy I referred to at the beginning and my observations tend to also bear this out.

We NEVER saw Wolves in the W.Kootenays, when I started and I had never seen one in the Flathead, or Elk Valleys; this is not from 1-2 weeks per year hunting holidays, it comes from living there, in the bush alone for 3 months at a time.

There, seem to be FAR, FAR more B Bears and Grizzlies now wander into some of the oldest parts of Nelson, settled circa 1890s and that certainly never happened until very recently.

So, serious predator control is needed, but, again, it is the political aspect of all this that is the real problem.

[bearvalley]

So the question is how active have the majority of BC hunters been on asking for management of predators?

[325]

Something to ponder......
An area that I elk hunted for years is in a very remote and isolated location.
It took us years to grub hoe and cut our way in to access truly amazing elk habitat.
We used lamas for the first while upgrading to mules once the trail systems were better established.
Four large drainages, numerous hung valleys.
The area would cover aprox a 10 by 10 mile chunk of country.
It is the best elk habitat in the region with next to no hunting pressure.
A few bulls get "scratched" on the outskirts of this area.
It is too far back to backpack hunt.

Never seen evidence of a hunting camp, piece of rope....nothing.
We are the only ones stupid enough to spend years building the infrastructure to get those sure footed mules in.
Almost got them killed a few times due the treacherous nature of the country.

Although extremely tough, the elk hunting opportunities were incredible.
Laying in camp listening to numerous bulls scream all night....it was elk hunting heaven.
Not uncommon to see 8 or 9 bulls in a day when the rut was in full swing.
Cow herds averaged 6 to 8 animals and were throughout the drainage systems.

I gave up on the area two years ago.
To even see a bull was becoming a stretch....next to no cows.
Elk were not seen out on the lush slides anymore.
The few elk we did say were way up top in the in the thick berry bush.
That was never the case when elk numbers were strong in there.

THERE ARE....
- zero roads
- zero access
- zero logging
- as close to zero hunting pressure as it gets

Yet, elk are barely present where they were once thrived.
Not difficult to see what happened.

All the human impact variables are not present in this scenario.
What happened to the elk?
Disease? Definitely not.
About the only variable left on the list of suspects is predators.
And yes, the quickly growing wolf presence there coincided with the disappearance of the elk.

No regulation "6 point this" or "bow season that" has anything to do with the problem.
Absolutely zero.

Thinking that regulation can or will fix the problem is like thinking baptizing your cat will make a difference.

You nailed it!!

[BgBlkDg]

Good point, I have to admit, I was quite disappointed to see that only 16 ,000+ signatures were gathered on that recent BCWF petition which was posted here.

I will be 69 in less than two months, my one relative left who hunts has a collection of huge Elk racks that any GO would be proud to show on his site and my wife and I have medical issues, sometimes, I wonder why I bother with any of this as it will never do me or mine any good.

It has been this way since I can recall and I doubt that it is going to change in my remaining life. I get called names on Kootenay media sites for advocating scientific predator control and just laugh at the *armchair experts* whose actual bush experience is three weeks planting trees.....

What do ya do, all BS aside, you tell me.

[GoatGuy]

Something to ponder......
An area that I elk hunted for years is in a very remote and isolated location.
It took us years to grub hoe and cut our way in to access truly amazing elk habitat.
We used lamas for the first while upgrading to mules once the trail systems were better established.
Four large drainages, numerous hung valleys.
The area would cover aprox a 10 by 10 mile chunk of country.
It is the best elk habitat in the region with next to no hunting pressure.
A few bulls get "scratched" on the outskirts of this area.
It is too far back to backpack hunt.

Never seen evidence of a hunting camp, piece of rope....nothing.
We are the only ones stupid enough to spend years building the infrastructure to get those sure footed mules in.
Almost got them killed a few times due the treacherous nature of the country.

Although extremely tough, the elk hunting opportunities were incredible.
Laying in camp listening to numerous bulls scream all night....it was elk hunting heaven.
Not uncommon to see 8 or 9 bulls in a day when the rut was in full swing.
Cow herds averaged 6 to 8 animals and were throughout the drainage systems.

I gave up on the area two years ago.
To even see a bull was becoming a stretch....next to no cows.
Elk were not seen out on the lush slides anymore.
The few elk we did say were way up top in the in the thick berry bush.
That was never the case when elk numbers were strong in there.

THERE ARE....
- zero roads
- zero access
- zero logging
- as close to zero hunting pressure as it gets

Yet, elk are barely present where they were once thrived.
Not difficult to see what happened.

All the human impact variables are not present in this scenario.
What happened to the elk?
Disease? Definitely not.
About the only variable left on the list of suspects is predators.
And yes, the quickly growing wolf presence there coincided with the disappearance of the elk.

No regulation "6 point this" or "bow season that" has anything to do with the problem.
Absolutely zero.

Thinking that regulation can or will fix the problem is like thinking baptizing your cat will make a difference.

Weird............

[Fisher-Dude]

Ourea has nailed it, bang on.

The areas I hunted since the mid-1970s are now scarce for elk too, albeit a bit easier to access than his Honey Hole. We packed elk out up to 5 miles, which is still a helluva long way with 130 lbs on your back. We had ribboned trails that took us into some pretty remote country that no one else bothered to hunt, and I know of only a couple of elk besides the ones we shot taken there in the past 35 years.

Those areas now hold few elk. We had some success there in the early 2000s, but we've basically abandoned it now.

The few elk we were seeing the last few years we hunted there were up above the goats - what the hell is an elk doing up there instead of on the slides or in the balsam swamps? Similar to Oreo Cookie's experience with elk way up top.

When we tried calling, we'd get wolves howling back at us instead of screaming bulls. Haven't heard a bull there since 2002, the last year I killed one there. They won't bugle when a wolf cuts them off with a howl.

Being unable to sleep on full moon nights because so many elk were bugling around our camp is something I don't think I'll get to experience again, unless we get serious about this predator loading problem. Call your MLA.

[GoatGuy]

Kootenay Elk Pop Review and a bit of history:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r19918/Kootenayelkpopulationreview_final__1395349270477_5 349216529.pdf

[bearvalley]

Take it beyond you MLA. Go directly to the Ministers in charge of wildlife.
We have a Grey Wolf Management Plan. If we all got on board and demanded changes be made to the plan to utilize the tools available we would see a recovery in populations of wildlife. It makes a lot more sense to recover a dropping number of ungulates than to try to recover an almost extinct species.
Predator population control in BC became a regressing band aid fix since the moratorium was placed on 1080. Put in the hands of Predator Specialists, 1080 is a very efficient tool. Ariel shooting is also effective. There are not enough Chilcotin Hillbillies for trapping or snaring to correct the situation at hand in the timeframe nessary. Hunting to lower wolves to a manageable level is totally non effective. Bear numbers can be curtailed through hunting.
Other industries have put forth proposals to have predator numbers lowered. Just think of the hunting opportunities possible if 102,000 BC hunters let their voice be heard.

[325]

Kootenay Elk Pop Review and a bit of history:
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r19918/Kootenayelkpopulationreview_final__1395349270477_5 349216529.pdf

I hunt elk in the WK and would agree with this document in that there are good numbers of elk in many areas, HOWEVER, there are some areas that have been absolutely shit-kicked by wolves (and grizzlies). The north Duncan is a good example. Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is great, but what they hide is what's really interesting.

[BgBlkDg]

I cannot gain access to that document as this computer is jammed onto Nechakos gunlist, can someone somehow post it here in readable fashion.

[Ourea]

And to be clear I didn't "assume" it "had" to be predators.

In addition to endless hours in the back country I rely on game cameras as an important part of my intel gathering.
That's why I have so many.....deployed yr round
Cam intel gives you quantified evidence and a better understanding of numbers, age, predators etc.

Wolves were never a factor I needed to take into account with this area.
Never got any wolves on cams in this area.
Then it abruptly changed.
And the cam intel evidence was endless...especially in the locations that were key saddle crossing points from one drainage to the next.

Note the second set of eyes in the background.
F***ers

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAGwolf2.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/IMAGwolf2.jpg.html)

Wolf pics were very consistent.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAGwolf.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/IMAGwolf.jpg.html)

Day and night.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAG0390.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/browndog100/media/IMAG0390.jpg.html)

These are my observations.
I'm not regurgitating someone else's take or giving a knee jerk "opinion".
A ton of evidence zero's it down to the prime suspects. (for this area)

[zippermouth]

looks like there might be more than two sets of eyes in the first pic...

[sky-gunner]

looks like there might be more than two sets of eyes in the first pic...

Yeah theres the whole pack in the very back left of the picture, crazy, thats spooky.

[Bugle M In]

Has the ministry ever tried to collar some of these wolf packs???
Just to see where they are roaming and if these packs coincide with the elk that are missing in some of these drainages??
Granted, might be a waste of time to collar them, if we are trying to hunt them down.
But it would be interesting IMO.
Ourea basically gives a description similar to my experiences as well...granted, different area, and I never tried packing in lamas.....just steel horses.
Elk just aren't in the high country as before, and if so, they are hanging way up high in the middle of no where....hiding from Preds is my interpretation.

[bearvalley]

Why would anyone want to do another study on wolves in a situation where game numbers are decreasing and the wolf population has exploded. That's a path that has been gone down too often. The bottom line is, dead wolves don't eat meat.

[ruger#1]

Why would anyone want to do another study on wolves in a situation where game numbers are decreasing and the wolf population has exploded. That's a path that has been gone down too often. The bottom line is, dead wolves don't eat meat.

So true. They are also in Rock Creek.

[Ourea]

I saw a massive swing in elk numbers and behavior in an area where human activity and impacts are not a factor.
The impact on the elk and numbers were from a natural cause.

I am a bone hunter.
I have no issue competing in the field with others.
The only thing regulation has ever done to effect me is hurt the age class of the animals I like to hunt.
It hasn't hurt overall "population" per se .....only numbers of the age class I target.

The upswing in the predator factor is a variable I cannot adjust to and still be successful.
They trump everything.

Try and raise chickens some time.
You can have all the best feed, nice pens...they r doing great...for years.
Then the foxes, coyotes and martens show up.
Now you have no chickens.

We are experiencing a similar dynamic in BC right now.
Preds have dramatically increased in a lot of key areas in this province.
They are cleaning out the henhouse.

Look at the Kootenay Caribou.
An unhunted population of ungulates.
Their numbers have been all but wiped out.

Hunting and regulation have absolutely NOTHING to do with their demise.

[Husky7mm]

Well whatever. Nail me to a cross for thinking outside the box. I'm only raising questions based on my own observations. I'm not saying I'm a biologist.

Well JT for what its worth I thought it was very refreshing and full of logic. What has "in box" thinking gotten us, yet another massive population swing? Not saying that we are not in a major predator pit but I believe the large female havest had lots to do with this population drop in the EK anyways, and to reiterate it was managements goal.

Anyways perhaps after more studies on these disappearing elk someone with a title will identify what you have shared, be quoted on it and then everyone will believe it..... Fack that sounds so familiar.

[Whonnock Boy]

https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11218496_10153239888656605_5014785179210711956_n.j pg?oh=27348c2aa043d77a868e6fd3f34dff1f&oe=55C2CFA9

[Husky7mm]

Haha, the world was once thought to be flat too!!

[GoatGuy]

Haha, the world was once thought to be flat too!!

By people who didn't believe in the scientific method.

[Rattler]

Something to ponder......
An area that I elk hunted for years is in a very remote and isolated location.
It took us years to grub hoe and cut our way in to access truly amazing elk habitat.
We used lamas for the first while upgrading to mules once the trail systems were better established.
Four large drainages, numerous hung valleys.
The area would cover aprox a 10 by 10 mile chunk of country.
It is the best elk habitat in the region with next to no hunting pressure.
A few bulls get "scratched" on the outskirts of this area.
It is too far back to backpack hunt.

Never seen evidence of a hunting camp, piece of rope....nothing.
We are the only ones stupid enough to spend years building the infrastructure to get those sure footed mules in.
Almost got them killed a few times due the treacherous nature of the country.

Although extremely tough, the elk hunting opportunities were incredible.
Laying in camp listening to numerous bulls scream all night....it was elk hunting heaven.
Not uncommon to see 8 or 9 bulls in a day when the rut was in full swing.
Cow herds averaged 6 to 8 animals and were throughout the drainage systems.

I gave up on the area two years ago.
To even see a bull was becoming a stretch....next to no cows.
Elk were not seen out on the lush slides anymore.
The few elk we did say were way up top in the in the thick berry bush.
That was never the case when elk numbers were strong in there.

THERE ARE....
- zero roads
- zero access
- zero logging
- as close to zero hunting pressure as it gets

Yet, elk are barely present where they were once thrived.
Not difficult to see what happened.

All the human impact variables are not present in this scenario.
What happened to the elk?
Disease? Definitely not.
About the only variable left on the list of suspects is predators.
And yes, the quickly growing wolf presence there coincided with the disappearance of the elk.

No regulation "6 point this" or "bow season that" has anything to do with the problem.
Absolutely zero.

Thinking that regulation can or will fix the problem is like thinking baptizing your cat will make a difference.

Bang on! Hunting is not the reason for declining elk numbers.

[aggiehunter]

guess we can wait till wolfie sets the regs then.....

[Fisher-Dude]

The bow proponents seemingly want to blame population declines on GOS hunting in an attempt to get rifle shut down in favour of more bow only seasons.

The agenda is soooooo obvious. Do they think the rest of us don't see it?

[Whonnock Boy]

I'm still waiting for data that suggests it will help, and what provinces or states utilize bow only seasons instead of rifle so we can compare our seasons with others.


The bow proponents seemingly want to blame population declines on GOS hunting in an attempt to get rifle shut down in favour of more bow only seasons.

The agenda is soooooo obvious. Do they think the rest of us don't see it?

[J_T]

The bow proponents seemingly want to blame population declines on GOS hunting in an attempt to get rifle shut down in favour of more bow only seasons.

The agenda is soooooo obvious. Do they think the rest of us don't see it?
You do realize it is you who keeps any bowhunter "agenda" at the forefront of all discussions you are involved in, I assume.

[Fisher-Dude]

You do realize it is you who keeps any bowhunter "agenda" at the forefront of all discussions you are involved in, I assume.

You and Ern should quit fighting the science and look for opportunities that don't involve cancelling someone else's season based on social reasons. You'd have much more luck at the table.

[Ohwildwon]

By people who didn't believe in the scientific method.

Unfortunately, the Sun still circles the Earth for many people, in my opinion...

Constructive thread all in all, learning lots, keep it goin!

[Spy]

The bow proponents seemingly want to blame population declines on GOS hunting in an attempt to get rifle shut down in favour of more bow only seasons.

The agenda is soooooo obvious. Do they think the rest of us don't see it?
WTF now you attacking bow hunters??? What you are accusing us of is a real kick in the teeth, thanks who cares what weapon you use? You got some serious hate on for bow hunters or what? Or you just hate certain individuals? Accusing bow hunters of trying to shut down rifle season is crazy & will never happen!

[Spy]

It would be nice to have a longer bow season that could run together with the current rifle season, but thats not what this thread is about sorry for the hijack.

[hunter1947]

See what happens when you post videos of your hunts online! :smile:

Here are the number of elk hunters where you hunt.

Average number of elk hunters in H47's MU:

1983 - 1992 was 289
1993 - 2002 was 274
2003 - 2012 was 260

It appears that there's a steady decline in elk hunters near your camp, Wayne!


Pat LOL all the hunters I have seen in my hunting area the past few years must not of had a questionnaire form sent to them to fill out to say what management unit they had hunted in ????..

I Don't beleave the total numbers from the past tell me how does anyone know when a group of hunters have came and gone in a Region ????? I see what I see in the area I have hunted for elk over my hunting years the numbers you have put up might be right ?? what about all the numbers that where not put up meaning no questionnaires sent to many hunters..

Example I can go to any region in the EK or other and hunt the area without anyone knowing I was there how does the wildlife branch know the numbers where and when every hunter has hunted in any region ??? :confused: not everyone gets a questionnaire survey to fill out I have seen so many hunters in the region I hunt the past three years..

I will be hunting elsewhere this coming years for elk in the 80ties I was lucky to see a hand full of hunter in two weeks now in two weeks I see over 50 hunters in this area I hunt..

This whole topic is regarding elk population my earlier post says one of the main reasons why the elk deer others have declined ,,PREDATOR problem is number one fix it as for others and we will have better hunting in years to come its not just the one thing its a big circle that makes one big problem why our population on prey is down in numbers..

[6point]

Pat LOL all the hunters I have seen in my hunting area the past few years must not of had a questionnaire form sent to them to fill out to say what management unit they had hunted in..

Don't beleave your reading numbers from the past tell me how does anyone know when a group of hunters have came and gone in a Region ????? I see what I see in the area I have hunted for elk over my hunting years the numbers you have put up might be right ?? what about all the numbers that where not put up meaning no questionnaires sent to many hunters..

Example I can go to any region in the EK or other and hunt the area without anyone knowing I was there how does the wildlife branch know the numbers where and when every hunter has hunted in any region ??? :confused: not everyone gets a questionnaire survey to fill out I have seen so many hunters in the region I hunt the past three years..

I will be hunting elsewhere this coming years for elk in the 80ties I was lucky to see a hand full of hunter in two weeks now in two weeks I see over 50 hunters in this area I hunt..

This whole topic is regarding elk population my earlier post says one of the main reasons why the elk deer others have declined ,,PREDATOR problem is number one fix it as for others and we will have better hunting in years to come its not just the one thing its a big circle that makes one big problem why our population on prey is down in numbers..
I got a good chuckle out of these numbers, but you cant argue with "science"!

[hunter1947]

I got a good chuckle out of these numbers, but you cant argue with "science"!

Science only works when you make it work ,,the numbers of hours I spend out in the wild the number of miles I put on foot is unreal I see what is out there do the Biologist see I say not there to busy working behind there desks think they are using science LOL tell me this how many miles does each and everyone of these Biologist put on foot out in the bush in a calender year as of myself ??? I say next to nothing..

The amount of game animals I saw dead this early year is in the hundreds some from winter kill and other and lots from predator kills our management stinks and I don't like the way they run our game management..

In order to make science work they have to know the real number on each and every hunter where they hunted in that calender year not just a percentage..

Any hunter who purchased a hunting licence is entered into the hunting licence pool and could be randomly selected to receive a harvest questionnaire for game bird, mule deer or wolf. Any hunter who purchased a species licence – other than mule deer – is entered into the species licence pool and could be randomly selected to receive a harvest questionnaire for black bear, caribou, cougar, elk, grizzly bear, moose, mountain goat, mountain sheep or white-tailed deer.

[Husky7mm]

By people who didn't believe in the scientific method.
Well lets just put away the books and suppress any new thoughts then, we are done learning and advancing. Science has never been wrong, no one has ever looked back at the past and said " man I cant believe we thought like that, I cant believe what we did, I cant believe what I thought was true? "

What about mathematics? There are more hunters than there are elk. 1 wolf needs about a deer a week to live off of, without a wolf reduction when will all the ungulates be gone? How many elk have permanently taken up residence at the mines? How many migrate to Alberta in the winter and are hunted in Jan and Feb? All factors of this decline.

[Fisher-Dude]

The amount of game animals I saw dead this early year is in the hundreds some from winter kill and other and lots from predator kills our management stinks and I don't like the way they run our game management..


But Husky (who lives in the Peace) is telling us it's not predators, and that hunters in the EK aren't seeing winter kills or predator kills.

[6point]

But Husky (who lives in the Peace) is telling us it's not predators, and that hunters in the EK aren't seeing winter kills or predator kills.

No hes not, it sounds like hes saying there could be many different reasons. I think you need more school!

[Fisher-Dude]

No hes not, it sounds like hes saying there could be many different reasons. I think you need more school!

Please interpret this for me. I must have read it wrong.



Wolves, I dislike them as much or more than the next hunter, but if they are the primary cause than there should be a large increase in incidental kills and at least sightings and I am not seeing it or hearing of it, so really its mostly anecdotal or, and word of mouth.

[happyhunter]

We who live and hunt in the kootenays noticed the increase in preds and decrease in game years ago! And when we spoke about it we were slammed for sharing our anecdotal evidence and called shitty hunters. We were told by some here that we didn't hunt hard enough and should spend more time in the bush. I have little respect for these members who now have done an about face and preach about the predator issue as if they ever had a clue about it. All these facts and study's but you guys can't see the forest for the trees!

[6point]

We who live and hunt in the kootenays noticed the increase in preds and decrease in game years ago! And when we spoke about it we were slammed for sharing our anecdotal evidence and called shitty hunters. We were told by some here that we didn't hunt hard enough and should spend more time in the bush. I have little respect for these members who now have done an about face and preach about the predator issue as if they ever had a clue about it. All these facts and study's but you guys can't see the forest for the trees!

Yep! the first time I found this site a few years back I asked about animal populations and stated that there was getting less and less game around the areas that I live and hunt in. I was jumped on and called a troll. told there was lots of game left and I just wasn't good enough to find it! a year later many of the same members that jumped on me for claiming a drop in ungulate numbers suddenly where doing a 180 and jumping on the wolf wagon acting as if they had been on that side of the fence the whole time.

[Husky7mm]

But Husky (who lives in the Peace) is telling us it's not predators, and that hunters in the EK aren't seeing winter kills or predator kills.

Pat, who lives in the OK has always had a world of second hand, regurgitated knowledge to share from his perch behind his computer.
To be clear I never said it wasn't a predator problem. I was questioning if it had gotten worse in the last few years. You see here in the peace its polluted with wolves, IMO much more than the EK that I recently moved from. Seeing wolves here is common, I have seen 15 plus this year alone. Their tracks are layered down every bush road. People are constantly killing them too, there are hunters here that have up to a few dozen wolves under there belts. Thats a shit pile of wolves. Where are the EK wolf kills? Are there more wolves than there was 2 years ago? Need I remind you that I was accused of having my hair on fire a few years back when I brought up my concerns about predator numbers there, as a resident I will add?!?!

[GoatGuy]

Well lets just put away the books and suppress any new thoughts then, we are done learning and advancing. Science has never been wrong, no one has ever looked back at the past and said " man I cant believe we thought like that, I cant believe what we did, I cant believe what I thought was true? "

What about mathematics? There are more hunters than there are elk. 1 wolf needs about a deer a week to live off of, without a wolf reduction when will all the ungulates be gone? How many elk have permanently taken up residence at the mines? How many migrate to Alberta in the winter and are hunted in Jan and Feb? All factors of this decline.

The world is made up of a few different sorts. At the end of the day there are three types: one that makes decisions based on beliefs, one that makes decisions based on a combination of science/beliefs/experience, and one that makes decisions based on science. The colours move from white to shades of grey to black. That isn't about being 'right' or 'wrong', that's about the discipline and rigor a person puts into forming an opinion or making a decision.

Where one fits into those 'shades of grey' is their choice.

[GoatGuy]

These papers were probably already posted

They are nevertheless GREAT:

http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/files/thesis/hebblewhite_2000_msc.pdf

http://www.motherjones.com/files/2-predatorpreymanagement.pdf

http://www.cfc.umt.edu/research/heblab/files/PE_Hebblewhite_RatioDependenceWolfElk_2013.pdf

http://www.cfc.umt.edu/research/heblab/projects/yaha-tinda-elk.php

http://www.cfc.umt.edu/research/heblab/files/PONE_Goldberg_Wolf-Elk-Banff_2014.pdf

There are links to other papers/projects in those links.


Just as a bit of an aside there is no 6 pts season, 'rut hunt', 'trench hunt', 'mine hunt', 'bow only season', rifle season, youth season, cow season, senior season, cow season, LEH season, or any season at all for that matter in Banff.